We are being asked to install a water leak detection and water shutoff valve in our secondary residence. I have a Vera Plus that I recently installed there and have a basic light control system along with motion detectors and a z-wave kwikset smart deadbolt integrated into the system as well. I can do the basics. The question is what kind of system works best. Is there one that is integrated into the shutoff valve that senses when water has flowed for too long a period of time and just shuts the water off without having water sensors all over the house? We do turn off the water when we aren’t there but had a major leak causing about $50000 in damage before we started doing that. Then we had a minor leak while we were there last winter. The issues seem to be pipes buried in the slab and there is concern that the water to the outside lines which need to be left on to irrigate plants might also start leaking in the slab and into the house. Thanks for any help with this.WTUXCY
No replies to my original query, so perhaps I should have posted initially in the general section instead of this section. My brother and I started looking at various systems that are out there, and he came up one from Fortrezz–basically a flow meter and an automated shutoff valve, both zwave controllable:
The Fortrezz website indicates that the automated shutoff valve is Vera compatible, but doesn’t indicate that the flow meter is (but it is zwave controllable). So I will need to call them on that. Obviously, the proof of the pudding is whether I can get this to work with my Vera Plus. I don’t know about plug ins or drivers for these two devices. This is the way I am heading. If anyone out there has experience with either of these devices and a Vera controller, please let me know. Thanks.
Before there was an easy solution commercially available, I created my own system using leak sensors and a normally open valve. It was back in 2012 and I was on ADT Pulse. (don’t hate me…I didn’t know any better.)
With the components installed it was a matter of creating a simple rule. When X water sensor detects water, activate the light module (that was connected to the normally open valve). When the light module was “ON” the valve would close, shutting off all water to the house.
This has saved my butt with a leaky dishwasher. I had forgotten I installed a water sensor under the appliance until it went off one day. Would have been very expensive to fix water damage after a complete cycle.
Link to my original go by: ADT Pulse Water Shut Off Valve | Inzax
Well, I called Fortrezz today and while the water valve (automated shut off valve) works on the Vera, the flow meter being much more complicated, doesn’t have a plug in that works with the Vera. There is one for SmartThings. I will probably use some of their water sensors along with the shutoff valve. They indicated that they haven’t seen enough demand for using the flow meter with the Vera to develop a plugin but hope to pay someone outside the company who is interested to develop that plugin. Anyone who is interested should contact Fortrezz.
I’m surprised that it needs a plugin. Seems like it presents itself as generic multi-level sensor. The documentation is pretty good here:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57363221555986b60e62f0f0/t/57d6ef86725e252bea53590d/1473703814674/Flow+Meter+Technical+Manual.pdf I’m sure it would be easier to use with a plugin, but you might get what you need with a generic sensor. The parameters seem reasonably clear.
On the other hand, $230 plus installation cost is a bit steep for an experiment.
I own the water meter and they told me the same thing before. Problem is without a plugin you don’t get all the fancy data. With smart things they use their own fortrezz cloud to store data from the meter then graph and chart it to show usage.
If you add the device without a plugin (I use it on homeseer not vera) you get several child devices. You get a flow meter but it just starts at zero a keeps counting up until your reset it. So basically it reads what the meter reads. If you wanted to know how much you used in the last year, month, week, day, hour, min, your going to need somewhere to store the data every min and something to calculate the current meter read subtract the saved data on the date and time you want to tell you what you used from then till now. That’s really what the cloud and plugin (which doesnt exist in Homeseer or Vera) does.
So the meter works and in HS I get 8 Child devices from it. They are:
- Root device
- Battery % (it runs on ac power and has battery backup)
- Current total Gallons reading (with a reset button like a watt meter)
- A general purpose sensor (gives a number code for water flowing or not, See #8 same data)
- Heat Notification (tells if temp is too hot or too cold, adjustable)
- Power Management Notification (tells if ac power is off, battery low, power restored and more)
- Temperature (temp of unit??? I put a “?” since I’m not sure where the probe is. I see only wires going to pickup sensor outside not inside of meter)
- Water Notification (tells you no water flowing, water flowing or excessive water flowing. Adjustable GPM to your needs)
More info on those can be found on fortrezz website technical manual for the device.
The device is nice and I could have bought a meter with a mag pickup on it and attached that to a mimolite and got almost the same data. That would probley cost around 150ish and be cheaper. But this is a nice setup has battery backup and I would say is worth it. In HS I am able to run my own script and creat virtual devices to create my (min, hourly, daily, weekly) start times and usages. Imperihome does charts for that data. So I would say you can make it work on VERA but yes if a plugin was made the data would be more refined and look like what they have for Smarthings.
My point of this post was to just say take what they say with a grain of salt about not working with anything but SmartThings since they are just talking about a plugin and graphs not the actual device and main data. They don’t have any plans on making it work with HS either, but I’m happy with it the way it is.
Thanks. That was pretty useful. Since you are able to access gallons per minute data with notifications and are apparently able to modify the limit in gallons per minute to trigger that notification, the device would probably work for me. Thus, if I had a major break (greater than 5 gallons per minute flow), the device could be made to trigger the automated shutoff valve to shut off the water. I would also like to be notified when water has flowed for too long continuously at lower flow rates (say longer than 30 minutes) so that the water could be shut off. I don’t know if that will be possible.
BTW, there is a plug in available on the Vera website (I just found it this morning). I don’t know how robust that plug in is, but probably at least sufficient to give rudimentary readings (I hope).
Again, thanks for your help, and if you have any knowledge about setting the length of time the water can flow using that flow meter, please let me know.
That shouldn’t be a problem to do depending on what your using to run scenes in vera. I used to use PLEG for all my logic and with the child devices (number 4 and 8) both or either could be used to trigger what you want.
For me the greater then 5gpm is not so useful. A flowing garden hose, sprinklers and other combination of things uses more water. Also the leaks I have had around my house have all been minor leaks like sprinkler valves bad and not shutting off all the way. I also had a leak sensor trip under a sink and it was also a small leak from a water line going to dish washer. Neither were 5gpm floods. I also have a pool with an auto top off float valve. It keeps my water meter turning all day long so I’m currently working on a solution (timed fill) to get my meter to actually stop reading “Water flowing” all day long. The meter is pretty sensitive and doesn’t take much to change from not flowing to flowing.
I have a rain water collection system … and a 1 GPM or 60 GPH or 1440 GPD leak would play hell on my 12000 Gallon storage tank.
If I use a continuous flow for an extended period of time > 10 Minutes it will generate a repeating warning every 10 minutes.
This would only be for the inside water, so I guess the >5 gpm would be useful. However, I would like a way to shut off the water after say 30 minutes of flow even if it is <5 gpm, like a slow leak. Hopefully that can be handled by Vera scenes with the flow meter and the automated shut off valve.
Can the stock vera Scenes handle turning off a device based on the “trip” time? Door opened for more then 5 min turn off a light? If so then you should be good to go if not a script or PLEG can I know for sure.
I don’t really know the answer to that question. I will investigate in the scenes. I know my lights are set to turn on at the same time every day, but I could set them to turn on 30 minutes before sunset or after sunset everyday. Obviously that is quite different. Perhaps someone who isn’t a newbie with Vera could reply to this. Thanks for the input.
I took a look at Vera Scenes, and despite not having the flow meter installed or integrated into my Vera system, it appears that I could develop a scene in which if the flow meter had water flowing continuously for 30 minutes, it could then send a message to an automated shut off valve to shut off the water. This would be done using the manual mode in the Triggering menu on scene development. Thanks for all for the help here. I will almost certainly go ahead and purchase the flow meter and water valve from Fortrezz and try to set those up next month. I will report back as to how all of this goes.
I haven’t found a better option for the Flow meter but the water shutoff valve you have alot of options. I’m not sure if you explored any yet? I ended up with the 1" version from HomeSeer.
The Fortrezz one seems to be alot more expensive for both the 3/4" and 1" versions. Like double the price.
This one seems to be the same as the homeseer one and almost the same pricing. HomeSeer (like the light switches) buys the deivces and relabels and updates software. These both are probley made by the same company I guess it depends on which logo you trust more.
They have great amazon reviews including use with VERA.
[quote=“integlikewhoa, post:14, topic:196259”]I haven’t found a better option for the Flow meter but the water shutoff valve you have alot of options. I’m not sure if you explored any yet? I ended up with the 1" version from HomeSeer.
The Fortrezz one seems to be alot more expensive for both the 3/4" and 1" versions. Like double the price.
This one seems to be the same as the homeseer one and almost the same pricing. HomeSeer (like the light switches) buys the deivces and relabels and updates software. These both are probley made by the same company I guess it depends on which logo you trust more.
They have great amazon reviews including use with VERA.[/quote]
Both my flow meter and automated shutoff valve will be located outside where my manual shutoff valve is. I am a little worried about the product you cited here in terms of it being outside. The Fortrezz valve can definitely be used outside. In addition, since I will probably add their water sensors as well, the two devices work directly through the z-wave controller, according to the Fortrezz site. Hopefully, this will give both my insurance company and me peace of mind, assuming I can get everything integrated and working well together. Should know more by the middle of June when I will be going out there.
[quote=“leedavidr, post:15, topic:196259”][quote=“integlikewhoa, post:14, topic:196259”]I haven’t found a better option for the Flow meter but the water shutoff valve you have alot of options. I’m not sure if you explored any yet? I ended up with the 1" version from HomeSeer.
The Fortrezz one seems to be alot more expensive for both the 3/4" and 1" versions. Like double the price.
This one seems to be the same as the homeseer one and almost the same pricing. HomeSeer (like the light switches) buys the deivces and relabels and updates software. These both are probley made by the same company I guess it depends on which logo you trust more.
They have great amazon reviews including use with VERA.[/quote]
Both my flow meter and automated shutoff valve will be located outside where my manual shutoff valve is. I am a little worried about the product you cited here in terms of it being outside. The Fortrezz valve can definitely be used outside. In addition, since I will probably add their water sensors as well, the two devices work directly through the z-wave controller, according to the Fortrezz site. Hopefully, this will give both my insurance company and me peace of mind, assuming I can get everything integrated and working well together. Should know more by the middle of June when I will be going out there.[/quote]
Both of mine are mounted outside at the entrance of the house in Arizona. The water meter is below ground in a round box. The shutoff is exposed above gound.
I do not have the electrical connection for either unit exposed though. The actual z-wave box (water flow valve) with the power connections is not water proof and doesn’t look weather resistant. Owning both products I would say they are the same. Valves can be exposed electrical connections can not or need to be severally water proofed.
Only a 9ft water leak cable works directly with the water valve.
Water leak sensors allow direct associations. Direct associations are setup threw the controller (VERA) to allow the sensor to directly control a device (water valve in this case). You can set any sensor that supports direct associations (all the sensors no matter the brand I know of do this) to control any device that supports direct associations (even a light switch or non water valve). So what fortrezz has is nothing different then other brands and direct associations work the same with any device brand or type. So if you wanted Brand ABC motion sensor to turn off a light or off a water valve when it senses motion you could do that as long as both devices support direct association.
You can read a bit more here: http://www.vesternet.com/resources/technology-indepth/groups-scenes-associations
So the bottomline is while I have nothing against Fortrezz or their products (I own several and like them) I don’t only drink one brands Kool-Aid to much. Their valve is quiet expensive (like 200.00 more or double) and function is going to be the same. If it was in the same ballpark in price I would consider it more. Do some research and see why z-wave and z-wave functions are one in the same. Brand vs. brand will not make a difference if they support the same features, which I see they do.
[quote=“integlikewhoa, post:16, topic:196259”][quote=“leedavidr, post:15, topic:196259”][quote=“integlikewhoa, post:14, topic:196259”]I haven’t found a better option for the Flow meter but the water shutoff valve you have alot of options. I’m not sure if you explored any yet? I ended up with the 1" version from HomeSeer.
The Fortrezz one seems to be alot more expensive for both the 3/4" and 1" versions. Like double the price.
This one seems to be the same as the homeseer one and almost the same pricing. HomeSeer (like the light switches) buys the deivces and relabels and updates software. These both are probley made by the same company I guess it depends on which logo you trust more.
They have great amazon reviews including use with VERA.[/quote]
Both my flow meter and automated shutoff valve will be located outside where my manual shutoff valve is. I am a little worried about the product you cited here in terms of it being outside. The Fortrezz valve can definitely be used outside. In addition, since I will probably add their water sensors as well, the two devices work directly through the z-wave controller, according to the Fortrezz site. Hopefully, this will give both my insurance company and me peace of mind, assuming I can get everything integrated and working well together. Should know more by the middle of June when I will be going out there.[/quote]
Both of mine are mounted outside at the entrance of the house in Arizona. The water meter is below ground in a round box. The shutoff is exposed above gound.
I do not have the electrical connection for either unit exposed though. The actual z-wave box (water flow valve) with the power connections is not water proof and doesn’t look weather resistant. Owning both products I would say they are the same. Valves can be exposed electrical connections can not or need to be severally water proofed.
Only a 9ft water leak cable works directly with the water valve.
Water leak sensors allow direct associations. Direct associations are setup threw the controller (VERA) to allow the sensor to directly control a device (water valve in this case). You can set any sensor that supports direct associations (all the sensors no matter the brand I know of do this) to control any device that supports direct associations (even a light switch or non water valve). So what fortrezz has is nothing different then other brands and direct associations work the same with any device brand or type. So if you wanted Brand ABC motion sensor to turn off a light or off a water valve when it senses motion you could do that as long as both devices support direct association.
You can read a bit more here: http://www.vesternet.com/resources/technology-indepth/groups-scenes-associations
So the bottomline is while I have nothing against Fortrezz or their products (I own several and like them) I don’t only drink one brands Kool-Aid to much. Their valve is quiet expensive (like 200.00 more or double) and function is going to be the same. If it was in the same ballpark in price I would consider it more. Do some research and see why z-wave and z-wave functions are one in the same. Brand vs. brand will not make a difference if they support the same features, which I see they do.[/quote]
Thanks for that. A lot of good information. I agree that the Fortrezz water valve is quite expensive relative to the one you cited. However, I can get it for about 75% of the retail price since my brother can purchase it for the wholesale price since he works in home automation. He uses the Elan system, which was outside my price range for a home controller, but often uses a less expensive Vera unit in combination with that as a bridge for locks and other zwave devices. So I actually may know more than he does about the use of Vera systems, etc. (though obviously not very much).
Yes, I realized that the electrical interfaces of both the shut off valve and the flow meter must be located in inside, though you can order the shut off valve in different cable lengths 25’, 50’, or 75’). Not as much leeway is given with the flow valve. It looked like the unit you cited didn’t come with any different cable length so that it could be located inside, but maybe I didn’t examine it closely enough.
As far as the ability for the sensors to directly communicate with the shutoff valve, it is indeed useful that could happen even with different manufacturers. However, you must know, that I have no ability (yet) to write code in LUA or PLEG, and even a pretty rudimentary knowledge of all of this technology. I am trying to learn it, but I am old and slow (that’s my excuse, and I am sticking with it).
You can’t beat 75% off (hell of a markup they have on them if that’s true and shows why they are so pricey) so jump on it.
The water flow valve uses USB micro connector (same as all Android phones charging cable) to plug from the valve to the box. It says it comes with 5 or 6 ft cable depending where you read it on fortrezz website. Well mine was actually 3ft when I measured it. but after a call to fortrezz they said extending it is not a problem. I bought a 6ft usb micro male to female extender (amazon) and weather proofed the connection from the meter cable to the extender.
On the water shutoff valves that I have (Homeseer) and the other I linked too. It uses a standard “rj9” or phone jack cable. It comes with 9ft cable and you can use any outdoor rated phone cable (rj9) to extend it if you choose. (9ft was enough for me and was around the same length as the meter after I extended it).
I think your mistaken on direct association or direct communication. Fortrezz doesn’t not automatically know what sensors (how many of them and what the ID #'s) you have and what valves you have nor do you just plug them in and it all works. After you include all your fortrezz devices (into vera) you need to link or direct associate them together (sensors to the valves). This doesn’t require LUA or PLEG or writing code. Also the process is the same no matter what brand of sensors and valve you have. So again doesn’t matter what brand you have the process is the same and neither will work together out of the box without you associating them (linking them together). Associations are almost the same on every controller (VERA vs. others) but where its found in web UI varies slightly. Google vera and associations to read on how your going to do it.
Very useful. I will read up on Vera and associations. Thanks for all the help.
I can purchase it for 75% of the price listed on the Fortrezz site, not 75% off. Actually, when I went back to look at it, the price was 80% of the price listed on the Fortrezz site. So not nearly as good a deal as I misled you to believe.