I have Leviton switches and dimmers and a couple of Aeotec Micro Switches (G2). I’m attempting to set a couple of these up on three-way circuits and it’s an absolute BEAR to do. “Regular” three-switches require three wires plus ground. Because these Z-Wave devices all require constant power and a Neutral, it means that you really need to run FOUR wires into the switch gang boxes and/or have the actual switch be installed in the box that also connects to the LOAD. This can further increase the number of wires required between boxes.
For example: I have an outside light with a switch by the door, and another switch located at the lights (on the elevated pool deck). In order to wire this so that the Aeotec switch is inside the house, and because the LOAD is actually accessible through the remote box, here’s what’s needed for wires…
The inside box requires Line, Neutral, Ground and FOUR runners. The first runner will carry the switched power out to the lights, the second and third are used as the toggles on the three-way switches. The fourth runner is the “hot” side of the remote three-way switch.
The outside box requires Line, Neutral, Ground, and FOUR runners. Same configuration as used above.
That’s a total of SIX wires plus ground in each box, which is ridiculous. I can’t believe how complicated the wiring gets with some of these devices. It’s actually smarter to run Line and Neutral inside with no load and use a standard two pole switch. Run Line and Neutral to the outside and also use a standard two pole switch. Install a micro switch in each box and “link” them together inside of Vera so that turning one on turns the other one and turning one off turns the other off. The one outside will have the load connected to it, there will be no load on the inside one and it will be used only to make the association to the outside one.
What a giant pain in the rear it is to use these things in 3-way configurations!
Can you connect each light up individually such that each light can be controlled by its own switch.
If so, consider forgetting all about using three way switching and do it by association instead.
It means every switch has to be a full z-wave switch rather than a slave but it saves sorting out wiring problems.
The main problem is that most devices with association do not seem to also do instant status but perhaps some do or maybe you don’t need instant status there.
I’m not familiar with those particular devices, using Fibaro ones myself. However, if they support momentary switches (as opposed to the more usual bistable or ‘rocker’ ones) then you can do N-way wiring with just two wires to each switch. Simply wire them all in parallel to the switch input of the Zwave relay.
I have a four-way setup like this for my hall/stairs//landing and it was trivial to wire up.
As an aside, I hate seeing rocker switches in the “wrong” direction, showing “off” but being “on”, so always use momentary ones for such arrangements.
Very mature response, Z-Waver. This has nothing to do with being difficult and everything to do with requiring more wires in each box than what is currently installed. In my house, because it’s a ranch, I -can- add wires if I wanted to but it’s a lot of work.
Your diagram completely reinforces what I was getting at… Put the Aeotec switch in the box with the right-hand switch and count how many wires have to come into that box to service your drawing. SEVEN!!!
And, the Aeotec switch needs to be located closest to the load, which in my case (for my deck lights), the switch needs to be outside. Two-pole switches are easy. Three-way wiring is very messy.
My issue here is that it’s a sub-par design on the part of the three-way switches.
I understand that each devices needs to have constant power in order to operate correctly, but that shouldn’t require a dedicated Line in each gang to accomplish this. I have other three-way switch systems that are able to use both of the variable inputs at the “far switch” to keep constant power without requiring additional wiring. These could have been designed the same way.
With three-way switches, you have to use a companion switch that’s designed specifically to work with the Z-Wave enabled device. No radio in the remote device, yet it requires constant power. Why?
If anyone wants to enable switches on three-way circuits, they need to understand that it’s not a trivial undertaking as it may actually require new wires in the walls. And, for many, it may be the first time that their system will require an electrician. I have all of the tools and know-how to do ALL of the work myself. It’s frustrating that this is the design that’s used whether you’re dealing with the micro switch or an actual three-way switch setup.
Electrical wiring is not something that I view as difficult - I’ve done a LOT of it in my own homes as rewiring of existing circuits and adding on new circuits as I’ve done remodeling and addition work. No problems for me to handle that. Adding Z-Wave switches to three-way circuits is unnecessarily difficult to do because of a poor design of the switches themselves. And, for some reason, it seems that at least MOST manufacturers use this design.
For the micro switches, I can follow the logic for why they’re designed that way. For the replacement switches, however, I do not.
Not quite sure I understand. I have reconfigured many of my wiring for three way switching from my old not zwave 3 ways and never had a problem.
The normal three way switch normally already have -3 wires (3 wires+ground)
Black- line
Red- Traveler
White- neutral
bare for ground.
The companion switches need power either to light up an LED indicator or to pulse the traveler. On these switches, the traveler is not an on off power. It is actually always powered. Your remote switch is not a mechanical switch. The advantage is that it simplifies wiring for 4-5 way switches and enables all of the remotes to use the same line and the same traveler. A mechanical switch would power only the line or the traveler alternatively depending on the position of the switch. I suppose your problem is that you have no neutral in your boxes? I am confused by your dedicated line problem. you should be able to always turn your black wire in the 3way wire into a line.
I have used also micro-switches and installed them just before the load so I can keep all the switch setup between the line and the load the same and have the micro-switch just be the last switch. No wiring required.
In a traditional three-way setup, line enters the first switch. There are then two different wires that can carry power to the second switch, and these alternate depending on the position of the first switch. Since power is ALWAYS PRESENT at the second switch by one of these two wires, there is no need to have a constant power line at the second switch.
With Z-Wave, there is now a requirement for constant power at the second switch. I have a Leviton dimming system that I installed into two different three-way circuits in my home. These are not Z-Wave, they are “smart switches” that allow dimming at both locations in the circuit. They use the existing wiring and provide 100% control at each switch location (on, off, and dim). The two “variable” wires are used to digitally communicate between the two switches for the various controls (“state”, if you will) and then the second switch sends the output to the load as determined by the communications.
Why don’t the Z-Wave switches work like this? Why do I need a separate line in the second box for constant power to the switch? The older, non Z-Wave Leviton switches have a need for that second switch to always be powered and they accomplish this perfectly fine. The Z-Wave Leviton switches require additional wiring and I do not understand why.
This makes it unnecessarily difficult to actually switch over from “plain” three-way switches to three-way Z-Wave switches and even more difficult to do with the micro switches.
If you can find a wiring diagram for three-way switches that do not require additional wiring AND allow you to place the Z-Wave enabled switch in the box that provides the Line (NOT the load), I would be interested in seeing that. Having to place the radio-enabled switch closer to the load makes it a little tougher to include those into the circuits because of distance. I -might- be able to do this for the deck lights being that they’re about 50’ away, but I might have issues because the signal has to pass through an exterior wall of the house.
[quote=“ember1205, post:7, topic:192782”]My issue here is that it’s a sub-par design on the part of the three-way switches.[/quote] I stand by my previous statement; there is no design deficiency. The micro switches were designed for a specific use case. The design is excellent when fitting within the parameters. Other switches work better in other use cases.
I understand that each devices needs to have constant power in order to operate correctly, but that shouldn't require a dedicated Line in each gang to accomplish this.
When referring to the Aeon microswitches, Line is required only where the microswitch is installed. Line is not required anywhere else in the circuit. Look at my previous diagram, there is no Line in either of the standard switches on that circuit. If you applied a multimeter to those switches you would find only 3Volts coming from the Aeon to the standard switches, no Line.
I have other three-way switch systems that are able to use both of the variable inputs at the "far switch" to keep constant power without requiring additional wiring. These could have been designed the same way.
I disagree that these could be designed the same way. But, if such a design was possible, the manufacturers would definitely have used it as it would make for easier drop in replacements and increased sales. However, If you are sure that you have a superior design in mind, then this is your opportunity to develop a new switch that will certainly take over the market. You'll be rich and show all the electrical engineers what 'idiots they really are'.
With three-way switches, you have to use a companion switch that's designed specifically to work with the Z-Wave enabled device. No radio in the remote device, yet it requires constant power. Why?
You're conflating your argument with a whole different switch and scheme, but if you are referring to the likes of the GE/Jasco switches, then you are mistaken. The remote/auxiliary switches do not require line either. They use only two wires between the remote/auxiliary and the master, a Neutral and a Traveler. See attached diagram.
If anyone wants to enable switches on three-way circuits, they need to understand that it's not a trivial undertaking as it may actually require new wires in the walls. And, for many, it may be the first time that their system will require an electrician.
This is indeed accurate. Depending on the home's wiring, implementing any sort of remotely controlled switch such as Z-Wave, ZigBee, Insteon... may require significant rewiring and may/should require an electrician. But, there are numerous household wiring schemes and codes and what may be a huge ordeal in one house will be no problem at all in another.
I don’t have the drawing talents Z-waver has so I will refrain from posting a schematic.
What he has posted explains it all though.
See the wire going between the main switch and the remote? It has 4 wires. Do you have this?
On a mechanical 3 way switch you normally do and the two wires alternating they are the traveler and the line as you said. (red and black respectively)
Well on a zwave setup, all you have to do is to convert the line into a permanent line and the traveler into… well, the traveler. It actually makes the wiring a lot simpler.
Here is why, for one, especially for a dimmer, the system has moved from analog to digital. Even though the remote does not have a zwave chip, it does have to report status on the LED to the main switch and has to control the main switch not by switching power from one wire to the other by by pulsing a signal back to the main switch. This actually simplifies the wiring greatly and reduces the number of wires needed when the system gets very complicated (like 5-6 ways which I had before)
I have to disagree, I actually think it makes it a lot simpler cleaner and easier to wire. I have ended up having unused wires in some of my setups when I reconfigured. It does require a little bit of understanding of how the wiring but it is so much cleaner and simpler to carry the signal digitally through one wire than through multiple alternating combination of powered wires.
I hope the explanation with the diagram from z-waver helps. Just check if you have the three colored wires between your two switches. If you do, you’ll be fine. Again the wire that tends to be kept out of boxes is actually the neutral so I am a bit baffled by your comments. You should have no issue at all if you have all 4 (3 current carrying+ ground) wires.
[quote=“rafale77, post:11, topic:192782”]I don’t have the drawing talents Z-waver has so I will refrain from posting a schematic.
What he has posted explains it all though. See the wire going between the main switch and the remote? It has 4 wires. Do you have this?[/quote]
No. And neither does anyone else. The typical home is wired with Romex which has THREE wires plus a ground. For these switches, you need FOUR wires plus a ground. This is my gripe.
[quote=“ember1205, post:12, topic:192782”][quote=“rafale77, post:11, topic:192782”]I don’t have the drawing talents Z-waver has so I will refrain from posting a schematic.
What he has posted explains it all though. See the wire going between the main switch and the remote? It has 4 wires. Do you have this?[/quote]
No. And neither does anyone else. The typical home is wired with Romex which has THREE wires plus a ground. For these switches, you need FOUR wires plus a ground. This is my gripe.[/quote]
When I said 4 wires I meant 3 wires + the ground. That’s what is on the drawing… You should alright then. On a Zwave setup you never need more than the romex 3 +1 wires no matter what. On some of the standard 5-6 ways you do. We are just trying to help here. It seems you did not read my post completely.
I don’t need help understanding how to wire it. I need someone to tell me how I go about wiring it so that the Z-Wave radio-enabled switch is inside the house and closer to the Vera. In order to do this, it requires FOUR WIRES plus ground because you have to send Line, Neutral, Load, Traveler, and ground. And that’s in addition to bringing Line, Neutral and ground INTO the box in the first place. That’s SIX wires plus ground.
Ok why do you need to carry line to your satellite switches? Just like on a standard mechanical switch you should never have to do this. If that’s how it was setup before, it is definitely not code where I live.
Your zwave enabled switch needs to be at the load and you should not be carrying the load between switches. Is it because of distance from the vera? If so I would suggest using a zwave device in between as a repeater. Some of my friends have been using cheap appliance control plugs.
[quote=“rafale77, post:15, topic:192782”]Ok why do you need to carry line to your satellite switches? Just like on a standard mechanical switch you should never have to do this. If that’s how it was setup before, it is definitely not code where I live.
Your zwave enabled switch needs to be at the load and you should not be carrying the load between switches. Is it because of distance from the vera? If so I would suggest using a zwave device in between as a repeater. Some of my friends have been using cheap appliance control plugs.[/quote]
Re-read my posts.
What you are missing is that I do not want Z-Wave radio-enabled switches mounted OUTSIDE of the house. Yet, the requirements from the switch manufacturers mandate this because of exactly what you stated - THAT switch must be nearest the load.
I’m not giong to buy more Z-Wave devices for the purpose of using them as repeaters with no function otherwise. If I were going to do that, I would deploy two switches - one inside with nothing connected and one outside connected to the load. The inside switch would be direct associated to the outside switch for the purposes of making it work like a 3-way.
I see, sorry I missed that. What is the reason why you would not want your zwave switch to be outside? Is it distance or weather proofing?
From what you are saying it seems to be distance. The repeaters have other advantages… they can actually be used as switches ( I used one for Xmas lighting outside for example) and they can repeat other devices as well, basically strengthening your mesh. I got mine for cheap (<$20) You could also go the route you are mentioning which would mean having two zwave switches inside and outside. Some like the linear switches are designed that way to begin with: the the remote switch basically just needs power and having no load but… that would mean that your remote location, closest to your load would already have to have a line… which you don’t seem to have? The line also does not need to come from the main switch. It can be from a different circuit.
Anyway, I attached a few wiring diagrams which now I understand probably won’t help you much. Hopefully they could help someone else.
On second thoughts, if you already have a line in your outdoor box you could do the 4th diagram…
Yes, I can accomplish this like you show with that fourth diagram. It would require that I “blend” two distinct circuits that run through common conduit to leverage the additional wires, and this somewhat defeats why I wired it the way I did in the first place - having an outlet and lights on distinct GFCI breaker-protected circuits because they’re near the pool.
I’m torn on what I’ll eventually do as I really don’t want to install the micro switch in the outside box, subjecting it to sub-freezing temperatures in the winter.
If I can suggest something that might be easier.
Go with the Lutron Caseta line of dimmers and switches. They are not z-wave but they can either be controlled with a Wink Hub, or the Caseta Hub (both of which have a Vera plug so you can still control them with your Vera).
None of these switches require a neutral (the only time a neutral is required is if you are trying to use a high amp fan with the switch).
The 3 way (4, or 5 way) configuration uses the Pico remote so you don’t even have to wire them, they use a 10-year battery instead and have wall mount kit that fits over your junction box.
Or if you really want to, you can leave your old togglers in place for the multi-way switches with some slight wiring modifications to the travelers.
So all you have to do is pick where you want your switch to be, wire the rest of the location to be powered on, and put the Pico remotes over them (or try your luck with the advanced method of the guide)