Replacing Vera with another zwave device

Community Playground General Discussions
1

Hi all,

I’ve been using Vera for around 2 year, firstly on a Lite then an Edge - starting on UI5 and ‘upgrading’ to UI7 with around 15 zwave devices.

I grew annoyed at a number of serious limitations with Vera (Fibaro sensors stopping working for no reason, SRT321 heating control issues) and the support levels on what is a ‘production’ environment, even though it is only used at home.

So I made the decision to look at other z-wave controllers, and after reading various reviews I’ve now tried quite a few and have opinions on them all.

Please note, this post is not meant to be defamatory to Vera as I know a lot of people love the system, but rather a post to show my own experiences and outcomes.

Controller 1 - Zipato Zipamini

I was impressed by the marketing for Zipato and their approach to the modular design on the larger Zipato system - which gave me comfort believing that their going after the not so cheap end of the market. However with the Zipamini (around ?80) this could give me access to the mature Zipato technology.

Pros:
The interface, it is beautiful - UI7 is still 5 years behind this
The rule engine - light years ahead of Vera, the drag and drop multi layered and/or/not rules are excellent

Cons:
Bad hardware - the Zipamini I received came with a spare motherboard (first time that’s ever happened). And the zwave signal was the worst I’ve ever seen - it could not operate any device through even a wall. I could put these down to a bad batch, but their quality control is lacking if motherboards can get shipped by accident.
Support - One one hand the initial registration issue was solved in around an hour (great!), but trying to get support on Nest was just awful, I tried for two weeks to get an answer on how to set Nest setpoint, they simply didn’t understand the issue, nor try to.

In the end I couldn’t trust another bad support experience tied with something which doesn’t work from the start. So the Zipamini went back to Amazon.

Controller 2 - Samsung Smartthings

Again the marketing for this is amazing, the videos show how its going to change my life, etc etc. The marketing for Smartthings it utter, utter nonsense. There is no way this controller can be given to a non-programmer and it be expected to perform any tasks other than basic on/off of devices.

Pros:
I guessed Samsung - I thought there is no way a leading brand could have something poor… I was wrong, it is awful.

Cons:
Simply doesnt work out of the box for anything more complex than on/off
Rules engine does not exist
To get a sophisticated action out of anything you need SmartApps - basically code created in the IDE.

The community for SmartApps is growing, but the forums are littered with once good projects left alone with comments such as ‘this was not a fun experience trying this’, project abandoned.

I struggle to understand how this product is considered consumer ready.

Unsurprisingly the SmartThings also went back to the store where I got it.

Controller 3 - Domoticz running on Raspberry Pi

By now I was quite disappointed in the market, having tried two ‘good’ controllers and finding serious shortcomings I was seriously considering that perhaps Vera really was the best of the bunch, but before going back I wanted to give this a go as I had a spare Raspberry Pi and all I needed was a USB z-wave stick.

I was not confident this would go well, I’m not a programmer and trusting the HA setup to a USB stick feels a little too Heath Robinson.

After downloading the image and installing it on the Pi (as simple as putting on the usb, rebooting and running a few simple comments which are all clearly given) it was up.

The interface on the Vera scale is probably somewhere between UI5&7 (see image), but after poking around for a few hours I got my feet.

My end opinion on Domoticz is just WOW, it just works, and well.

Pros:
Simple to setup
Cheap
Rock solid (two weeks and no failed devices whatsoever)
The rules interface is excellent (see image) - It’s basically the same if/or functionality of the Zipato, but it just works.
Openzwave (more about this below)
The USB stick - it’s excellent - (Aeotec Z-Stick Gen5) - the ability to remove this, go to the device I want to pair (bearing in mind I had to re-pair my entire house after moving from Vera) and click pair, simple flashing lights let me know it was done. I know this was possible on the edge, but having no wires to mess with was excellent. After a reboot the new devices show.
Zwave routing map -(see image) this is excellent, I can see which zwave devices are communicating with which, this has enabled me to shuffle some devices around to ensure that all nodes have multi-path routes.

Cons:
The interface is a little dated
There is no WWW access like home.getvera.com - but this can be solved via VPN, or port forwarding if you’re clueless about security!
Nest support is a tiny bit funky, I still can’t set the setpoint through the rules natively, but as this is a community supported project there is a fix, I just hit a URL and it works that way - and works solidly … to be honest this almost makes this a ‘pro’ for Domoticz.

Openzwave - Domoticz use this library for all zwave support and this is one thing which sets it leagues ahead of Vera. As this is community supported if someone finds a better way of working with a device you can update it. No waiting for support or a Vera update. I have 3 lights which were not recognised due to their part number being slightly different to others, fixing the issue as a matter of adding one line to an xml file - again I’m no developer but it was clear what I was doing (adding in a line that stated device X is supported by driver Y).

In summary I’m very pleased with Domoticz, it has some limitations which I believe all HA kit has right now, but in my opinion I’m finding it to be a superior fit for my needs than Vera.

I’d love to hear anyone elses thoughts on this, and I hope this may be useful to others.

Thx

btk

2

In addition to vera or mostly in place of vera I use Axial Control and the z-wave stick gen5. Axial has a lot more going for it than some may give it credit.

3

@billytkid - This is a good review. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

On the subject of OpenZWave I must disagree with your assessment. End users might be able to change its configuration with XML files, but there’s no way that anyone(ANYONE) is going to improve/enhance OpenZWave without having programming skill(C++) and an intimate understanding of the inner workings of the Z-Wave protocol.

I’m glad you found something that works well for you.

4

[quote=“Z-Waver, post:3, topic:193403”]@billytkid - This is a good review. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

On the subject of OpenZWave I must disagree with your assessment. End users might be able to change its configuration with XML files, but there’s no way that anyone(ANYONE) is going to improve/enhance OpenZWave without having programming skill(C++) and an intimate understanding of the inner workings of the Z-Wave protocol.

I’m glad you found something that works well for you.[/quote]
Hi Z-waver,

sorry you’re absolutely correct! I’m not expecting nor suggesting that a standard non-programmer would do this, however the ability of the community to update devices rather than waiting for one manufacturer does feel like a benefit.

thanks

Will

5

Nice write up I was in your shoes and also tested the waters.

I ultimately jumped to HomeSeer which you didn’t mention and not sure if you looked into or tried it. It too can run on a Pi (and they sale Pi’s already loaded if you don’t assemble your own) but I run on a windows machine that I was using for Blueiris and Plex already with a usb z-wave stick like yourself. Most people get scared off of homeseer when they think they need to buy a prebuilt homeseer I7 super computer for 1k. Homeseer doesn’t much resources and can be ran on just about any windows or linux machine and software can be purchased separately.

I would say its comparable to Domoticz in many ways and your Pro’s list looks about the same except for cost. Since Domoticz is FREE except for a pi and z-wave stick Homeseer does not match that, but it does make up for it with ease of use and well known company to back it vs. just all open source (pros and cons can be assigned to that).

A Homeseer Pi kit (Pi, Software, Z-wave+ shield) costs 199.00 without current discounts and a Pi kit and Aeon USB stick costs (75.00 + 40.00) 105.00 on Amazon. So I would say is probley 95.00 more then the FREE/Opensource based Domoticz in an equivalent setup.

HS has free use of a basic HS server (https://myhs.homeseer.com/) or unlike vera you can setup your own basic Authentication, HTTPS or more. They do have a premium if you want multi HS devices under one account or want to stream video (faster server) through HS.

I use Imperihome which is available across the board for VERA, Domoticz and HS so my experience was the same on my phone/tablets which is 99% of my actions if they are not event (automation) based. Alexia or voice control tho goes to HS built in.

Events in both Domoticz and HS are very similer (drop down style) and blows vera’s scenes out of the water. Which is better or easier is probley more preference or opinion and even with PLEG I was able to accomplish my goals with all.

6

I’m similarly fed up with the mios/vera ecosystem. I’m thinking of openhab, and porting my various plugins to separate apps which interact with openhab. This way they hopefully won’t get too tied to one ecosystem (which is what happened with the vera).

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[quote=“integlikewhoa, post:5, topic:193403”]Nice write up I was in your shoes and also tested the waters.

I ultimately jumped to HomeSeer which you didn’t mention and not sure if you looked into or tried it. It too can run on a Pi (and they sale Pi’s already loaded if you don’t assemble your own) but I run on a windows machine that I was using for Blueiris and Plex already with a usb z-wave stick like yourself. Most people get scared off of homeseer when they think they need to buy a prebuilt homeseer I7 super computer for 1k. Homeseer doesn’t much resources and can be ran on just about any windows or linux machine and software can be purchased separately.

I would say its comparable to Domoticz in many ways and your Pro’s list looks about the same except for cost. Since Domoticz is FREE except for a pi and z-wave stick Homeseer does not match that, but it does make up for it with ease of use and well known company to back it vs. just all open source (pros and cons can be assigned to that).

A Homeseer Pi kit (Pi, Software, Z-wave+ shield) costs 199.00 without current discounts and a Pi kit and Aeon USB stick costs (75.00 + 40.00) 105.00 on Amazon. So I would say is probley 95.00 more then the FREE/Opensource based Domoticz in an equivalent setup.

HS has free use of a basic HS server (https://myhs.homeseer.com/) or unlike vera you can setup your own basic Authentication, HTTPS or more. They do have a premium if you want multi HS devices under one account or want to stream video (faster server) through HS.

I use Imperihome which is available across the board for VERA, Domoticz and HS so my experience was the same on my phone/tablets which is 99% of my actions if they are not event (automation) based. Alexia or voice control tho goes to HS built in.

Events in both Domoticz and HS are very similer (drop down style) and blows vera’s scenes out of the water. Which is better or easier is probley more preference or opinion and even with PLEG I was able to accomplish my goals with all.[/quote]

Hi, yep I took a look at HomeSeer and this was going to be my next port of call if Domoticz didnt work. I can see that their paid for software model will also likely fill in the holes that cause frustration with Vera, as tehy make money on the software I woudl asume they have more money for service, over and above hardware support.

I like the fact the USB holding the z-wave info can theoretically just be moved to homeseer if needs be

thx

8

Very good and fun to read short review.

I run Vera for my “production” environment and I also have is since vera2 and UI2.
I have all kinds of problems with UI7 I never had with UI5. UI5 ran fine for 2 years…

Therefore I started to run Domoticz on my synology NAS with an openzwave and a Z stick. Runs fine and is very easy to install. Give so much more out of the box en has good integration with other systems.

There is one BUT. Every now and then I have to restart the package on my NAS because it gets unresponsive… But that might be due to the fact it’s running om my NAS an e.g. not on a Pi.

If there was this mix between Vera for the “stability” and the functionality of Domoticz (and offcourse PLEG and ALTUI) I think that would be the ultimate winner in the next years.

You can also read: If vera gets it’s act together, does what they promise and really solves issues instead of introdicing them in new releases, it would by far be the best domotica zwave product.

9

good, short, reviews - nice job

I’ve barely started reading about Domoticz - my concern is plugins. I quickly looked over the Wiki and it seems like some of what I use is not available: EVL3/4 Ademco Vista security panel and a few others.

I may have to jump back to Homeseer (prior Homeseer used back in v1.x days) but I left Homeseer back then based on oe huge issue for me which still looks to stand true (correct me if I’m wrong)…

They nickle and dime you - in reality, they $20 & $30 you for each plugin.
In the 1.x days you bought the Homeseer app and community plugins were free or inexpensive ($6-10).
Then comes 2.x and Homeseer got greedy - they started selling community plugins for profit.
After buying 5 to 10 plugins, your HA software is 2 to 3x more expensive

  • plugin support is all over the board since Homeseer does not support the plugins they sell, it is up to the plugin developer
10

There’s an intermediate solution : Razberry + openLuup + ALTUI

pro :

  • your scripts / scenes should still work
  • migrate your Vera plugins (if compatible), and spare the Vera resources
  • create a link on your Vera and use several Z-wave controllers (different HomeIDs)
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[quote=“vosmont, post:10, topic:193403”]There’s an intermediate solution : Razberry + openLuup + ALTUI

pro :

  • your scripts / scenes should still work
  • migrate your Vera plugins (if compatible), and spare the Vera resources
  • create a link on your Vera and use several Z-wave controllers (different HomeIDs)[/quote]

Very viable option - Good point.

Does PLEG work on OpenLUUP yet?

  • I have not tried the new PLEG v2 UI yet, if that makes the rule engine gap go away (I like PLEG v1 but it is difficult to use for complex stuff, and more difficult to debug)
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[quote=“Aaron, post:9, topic:193403”]I may have to jump back to Homeseer (prior Homeseer used back in v1.x days) but I left Homeseer back then based on oe huge issue for me which still looks to stand true (correct me if I’m wrong)…

They nickle and dime you - in reality, they $20 & $30 you for each plugin.
In the 1.x days you bought the Homeseer app and community plugins were free or inexpensive ($6-10).
Then comes 2.x and Homeseer got greedy - they started selling community plugins for profit.
After buying 5 to 10 plugins, your HA software is 2 to 3x more expensive

  • plugin support is all over the board since Homeseer does not support the plugins they sell, it is up to the plugin developer[/quote]

90% of plugins are free. I had probley 10 plugins in Vera any maybe spent 30 bucks with Richard on 3 of them with a few phones.

In Homeseer I have 11 not including the free z-wave plugin. I have paid for 3 of them and that cost 75.00. I paid for a weather program (altho there is free ones too), Imperihome plugin, and “EasyTrigger” which is for pulling string info for events use that most people will not use.

Plugins that are all free I use.
Ge Alarm panel, Sonos, Thinking cleaner (roomba), Pushover (push notifications), open sprinkler, BLBackup (for nightly auto backups), BLLAN (ping sensor).

Virtual sensors, and devices like that don’t require a plugin as I used to have in Vera. Day & Night also built in. So no cost there. I also have Blueiris but I never used the plugin in Vera and I don’t use it in Homeseer (I use same style virtual motions triggered via http).

I would like to think (and this is only my ruff guess) that people on average spend 100.00 on plugins. Ofcourse that number can be higher or lower but I tend to think I have more plugins and more external devices and things going on then the adv. user and I only spent 75.00. I’m sure I’ll end up spending more down the road some time also as I get new devices or expand my collection.

As far as support on plugins that’s where the real advantage is actually. Homeseer plays the middle man or “Ebay/PAYPAL” of the buyer and saler unlike VERA. If a plugin is not updated or working for you Homeseer will contact the plugin dev and if they can’t fix it you get a refund. No MIA dev not responding to pm’s or emails or someone that created one plugin and flew the coop to another system. I find way less problems with plugins on HS then VERA and way less updates or fixes needed mostly because updates don’t brake things. Just look at all the problems Richard is dealing with right now. Not only has his PLEG been having saving problems (for around a year now), but with VERA’s latest update now Vera alerts (both plugins I used to use) is currently having slimier problems. And he make great plugins with direct communication with VERA and they still can’t seem to get things fixed or stop braking things (I blame vera not Richard for the record).

I attached a pic of my current plugins and on the right you can see the 3 that are licensed . The rest are free. And just like here free plugins could be in the app store or they could be on the forum in the form of a zip file you manually drop in the folder.

13

There seems to be quite a Domoticz community in the Netherlands and I have also looked at it. Can’t really see the benefit over Vera or Homeseer (ignoring licensing cost for Homeseer). I own both but still sticking with Vera for now but getting increasingly annoyed with Vera.

Recently I see a lot of positive feedback on HASS ([url=https://home-assistant.io/]https://home-assistant.io/[/url]). It even connects directly with Vera (using Vera as the Zwave controller)

Did someone already take a look at that?

14

@integlikewhoa
OK, you convinced me to look closer at Homeseer. I’ll get a test system running when I get some time.

@tyfoon
HASS is a front-end only, it is not an automation system. And it is tedious/manual to setup too

15

I not selling any product as best as they all have their own target market.

However, this is a very recent post in the Homeseer board.

http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?p=1259920

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@Aaron
Maybe is has been a front-end only but now it’s a full blown automation system. It either uses its own zwave hard/software (stick/openzwave) or ‘connects’ to an existing controller (which is a ‘component’ for them). The rules etc are build in HASS in YAML.

I did not test it yet, but noticed a lot of good comments from Domoticz users who are switching and seem to be happy. Personally I really like their ‘component’ focus. With more and more devices in my house being IP based (next to my 70+zwave devices) very good integration with these devices & device support is key going forward. Seems a bit like the OpenHab concept.

17

[quote=“tyfoon, post:16, topic:193403”]@Aaron
Maybe is has been a front-end only but now it’s a full blown automation system. It either uses its own zwave hard/software (stick/openzwave) or ‘connects’ to an existing controller (which is a ‘component’ for them). The rules etc are build in HASS in YAML.

I did not test it yet, but noticed a lot of good comments from Domoticz users who are switching and seem to be happy. Personally I really like their ‘component’ focus. With more and more devices in my house being IP based (next to my 70+zwave devices) very good integration with these devices & device support is key going forward. Seems a bit like the OpenHab concept.[/quote]

I’m not interested in spending a monthly writing and debugging code to get my system/automation running the way it does with Vera… then another week making the GUI, by writing more code. Then dig into code EVERYTIME I add or change something… nope, too many things more important to spend time.

I’d rather pay money for a system like Indego or Homeseer which would take few days to redo my system/automation and use Imperihome for the GUI

18

Your probably right and I’m also not a fan of this.

I’m on holiday so have some time at my hands. Been working on my Homeseer setup but also quit some work and from a zwave support perspective not that good as Vera. about 70% of my modules are build in micro Fibaro & Quibino switches and dimmers and they seem very poorly supported. Quibino’s dont seem to work at all and also S2 support for the Fibaro dimmers seems not present.

An ex Vera user (Mike123) actually asked HS customer support about it and they simply responded that they don’t support it and he should contact Fibaro… Other users replied that HS is very US centric and product from Fibaro & Quibino are not sold that much in the US.

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[quote=“tyfoon, post:18, topic:193403”]Your probably right and I’m also not a fan of this.

I’m on holiday so have some time at my hands. Been working on my Homeseer setup but also quit some work and from a zwave support perspective not that good as Vera. about 70% of my modules are build in micro Fibaro & Quibino switches and dimmers and they seem very poorly supported. Quibino’s dont seem to work at all and also S2 support for the Fibaro dimmers seems not present.

An ex Vera user (Mike123) actually asked HS customer support about it and they simply responded that they don’t support it and he should contact Fibaro… Other users replied that HS is very US centric and product from Fibaro & Quibino are not sold that much in the US.[/quote]

I’m in the USA (which so is Homeseer) and your probley correct as I have not one Fibaro or Quibino device. Quibino I have never heard of and Fibaro I only hear because of the forums here which are not region based. I have not seen them for sale locally or any of the big USA online stores I shop.

I think I responded (Anjos?) to your post just now about the S2 problem on that forum. Not sure if that will help or not.

20

Fibaro zwave devices are, and have been, easily available in the USA for about 2 years now from a few Online etailers. No excuse for Homeseer not supporting the core sensors… Motion multisensor and window/door

This is an example of one of the shortcomings of Homeseer, and always has been. The owner is short-sighted and set in his ways. One example is he dropped insteon support in favor of zwave when most of his users were insteon and zwave was in its infancy and almost no one had it and there were very few devices.
I will still go look deeper into Homeseer but I don’t trust the owner. The v3 code base is super old (based on decade old tech) and I’m not sure what, if anything, he has planned for updates… V4?