Totally agreed although technically the vera hub has a built in web server which could theoretically be used for these thermostat but as of UI7 I don’t believe that the MiOS plugin API provides anything to publish an arbitrary content. I think that their business model is to provide a demand/response service to electric utilities. Maybe this is why they don’t want to document anything (what would prevent the utility to implement its own server and bypass them?). On the other hand I don’t see why the demand/response service and the daily programming service could not be 2 completely different things.
Reading up on Homekit, if this item supported it, it doesn’t necessarily need another radio.
The thermostat API is made available for apps against a standard. some third party can write a nice app for it with a good UI and some smarts.
[quote=“joylove, post:82, topic:179652”]Reading up on Homekit, if this item supported it, it doesn’t necessarily need another radio.
The thermostat API is made available for apps against a standard. some third party can write a nice app for it with a good UI and some smarts.[/quote] the same is true for the Vera controller as long as it goes through the cloud server. I don’t see anything in Apple’s HomeKit that would allow one to publish any web content from a web server running on a hub such as Apple TV.
That’s a lot of follow-up… Sorry I missed so much of the conversation.
I’ll go with joylove’s post, the points raised address a lot of questions asked by others. Remember, I’m not trying to get into an opinion debate. We did what we did after years (yes, not weeks or months, years) of observing the home automation landscape and it’s associated technology. You don’t launch something like this based on opinions, but on cold, hard economical facts. That being said, some of our development decisions aren’t in line with my own personal taste, but that’s ok, that’s why we have research on the subject 
Damn so close but no cigar. This product needs to be zigbee, BTLE or z-wave enabled to get traction in a smart home, for these reasons1 People who buy this item are likely to own or purchase other smart items. Living in a wifi bubble is a dead end.
We started off with Z-wave and zigbee, but the numbers don’t lie : WiFi is by far the most commonly adopted protocol in households everywhere, period. The use of any other protocol implies the need for a bridge or gateway. From a business standpoint, WiFi is headed anywhere but down: it has the widest acceptability base, is preferred and understood by most and allows the best native interoperability. Notice I didn’t say “it’s the most appropriate” ? Because it’s not. You know that, I know that, but I’d rather make something my mom understands rather than try to educate her to Zigbee and Zwave operations. If utilities start leveraging these protocols and educate the public, we’ll be the first on board but right now it’s not happening and it looks less and less likely to happen.
2 To recoup the high purchase cost of $125/node you need to promise savings, which means occupancy sensors and outdoor sensors to turn off the heat when needed and maintain the temperature better to allow a lower setpoint. Since you don't make the sensors, and aeon labs and smartthings do, then it's time to play nice.With a regular "dumb" programmable thermostat selling between 60 to 80 $, we didn't feel we went overboard with the price. In fact, if you go further up in this thread, there's a few people stating prices in the 100's, with the side note that it'll probably cost more. Obviously, volume is key, this is as good as we can make it for now. The savings part is much more complicated than a matter of sensors. A forced-air furnace or heat pump will move hot air very quickly, giving a cozy feeling in a pretty short time. Baseboard heaters rely on mass, that is the mass of everything in your house. It's furniture, walls, etc. It has been proven scientifically that in this system, the use of real-time sensors brings no added-value, even being counter-productive at times. Efficiency is achieved through learning the thermodynamics involved in a house, then exploiting it. Again, not pulling this from thin air, the study that governs our development shows a 35% increase in efficiency... So let's say 35% savings. On the outdoor sensor part you have a point. We will leverage the weather available online at first, but being that it's not alway very reliable, we really want to see our own remote sensing device in our catalog. One thing at a time if we don't want to screw it up :)
3 Offering an HTTP API doesn't work. The smart hub people won't bother to integrate your thing with their thing because they don't have the time, motivation or resources. As an owner of multiple supposedly-mainstream smart things I have learned the hard way that a native radio protocol is mandatory in any new purchase going forward, otherwise you end up with a load of crap that doesn't play together waiting for some sketchy port of 50% the supported functions promised in some forum post somewhere. Your smart dimming RGB bulb becomes on/off with no status reporting for example.
I agree ! Except this product wasn’t developed for the “smart-hub people” first. While we want to cater to as much people as possible, you must realize that we (you, me and everyone here) are part of an infinitely small group of the general population with the know-how and willingness to spend waaay too much time and waaay to much money on getting stuff to do what we want. I’d elaborate with my theory on this, but let’s stick to facts : Apple and Nest won their market hands down because they came out with the solution that fit the other 99% of the population. We’re only following the model… It doesn’t mean we don’t want smart hub integration, it’s just that we won’t start there. We want this to work with Vera, Revolv and all others out there, we’ll get to it, just not right at this time. And before it happens, an IFTTT channel will likely be our best bet. The whole reason I hang out here is to have this conversation so we’ll have a better idea of what needs to be done for the home automation “connoisseur”.
4 Ditch the stand alone app approach. A smart home is made of more than one function grouped together and working in symphony. I don't want to pull my phone out to adjust the temperature when I already have a $30 dumb stat waiting the wall with a nice chunky knob to twiddle, it's a step backwards in ergonomics. I should pull my phone out to monitor usage, PID curves, comparisons with well insulated buildings, things a knob doesn't convey. That's how you open wallets.
This we wholeheartedly agree with. The app is only necessary to provision the WiFi on initial installation. You can ditch it after that and we indeed want to be integrated with other smart home controls, as per the above explanations.
5 The screen doesn't need to be colour. I have iPhones for that. Whatever.
It doesn’t have to, but we couldn’t resist Our new GUI is coming up this week, it looks super nice while being neutral enough to not become a nuisance, something we feel our current UI has failed to achieve.
6 emphasize if you use a triac and if you offer modeling for the house/room.
Interesting comment. We felt that TRIAC switching was a given, we’ll clarify this. Mechanically speaking, we’re not different from what’s out there on the market, that is you can paint the casing if you want to and we use TRIAC switching and air cooling, although our configuration is quite different and results in a cooler device. Older electronic thermostats tend to heat up so much that they sometimes darken the paint above them over time. One could argue that a heating thermostat isn’t counterproductive, but we still see it as a parasitic effect.
Again, no flamming please. I’m just explaining what drove our choices with the development of Caleo. The rules of this game are still being written and there is no clear winner in the protocol war. Everyone - including myself and my team - has their own opinion of what constitutes the ideal “connected home”, but just like with smartphones, tablets, PCs and every other widely used technology, it begins with social acceptability. X-10 has been around since the 80’s, with people swearing back then that within 10 years everyone would have it. Just like Microsoft and it’s tablet felt they were on to something in the 90’s and flunked miserably. Sometimes, it’s not so much about the product then about the business model. That’s where we hope we’ll differ from the “take the money and run” approach we see with a lot of tech startups. We accept that Caleo will not please everyone, but it doesn’t mean we’re not willing to try
Your take on our business model is right. However, the reason we’re not currently documenting is quite simple: we were first out of the gate with a solution for this problem and although we’re nice guys, handing over the recipe to a problem the competition hasn’t yet managed to solve doesn’t sound like a good business plan. We’re not worried one bit about being bypassed. The last thing utilities want is to deal with assets on a local level. Nest’s 3.2 bill$ deal speaks volume to the fact that utilities want the accessibility, but none of the hassle.
I agree with your last comment and we are looking at keeping both universes as separate as can be. One, because we don’t like the idea of control by a third party without explicit opt-in, two because they can’t interfere with each other for the sake of ergonomic interaction.
[ul][li]The touchscreen allows to call back “modes” or user programs on a device, that affects all devices. If no connection is available, the thermostat acts like any electronic thermostat.
[/li]
[li]Correct.[/li]
[li]It’s better because it works in unison with the other thermostats in your house. Simply put, you’re better with a good team than an excellent single player.[/li]
[li]It’s neither operated or programmed for a phone. Unless you want to, but that’s a tiny screen… The mobile app is the interface necessary for the wifi provisioning (SSID, password, IP, etc.). Then it’s no longer needed as programming is based on the web interface. Once programming is complete, the system should A.) run itself with no interference, B.) be controlled manually through programs or settings available on the touchscreen.[/li]
[li] I have responded to this previously numerous times. Documentation will happen in due time. The cloud service is free and will remain free for individuals and include a single house. Commercial applications (such as remote lock-out) and multiple dwellings will be part of a paying service. [/li][/ul]
May I kindly suggest a visit to casaconnect.com or our Kickstarter campaign http://kck.st/1svcOOn ?
[quote=“T1000, post:85, topic:179652”]the reason we’re not currently documenting is quite simple: we were first out of the gate with a solution for this problem and although we’re nice guys, handing over the recipe to a problem the competition hasn’t yet managed to solve doesn’t sound like a good business plan. We’re not worried one bit about being bypassed. The last thing utilities want is to deal with assets on a local level. Nest’s 3.2 bill$ deal speaks volume to the fact that utilities want the accessibility, but none of the hassle.
I agree with your last comment and we are looking at keeping both universes as separate as can be. One, because we don’t like the idea of control by a third party without explicit opt-in, two because they can’t interfere with each other for the sake of ergonomic interaction.[/quote] Just a simple remote API (ideally web service based) implementing the same level of control as the one you have from the touch-screen interface without exposing any critical intellectual property would seem like a win-win.
Let me put it simple
- You promise some API in the future but nothing ready yet, so we don’t know how we will be able to use it. And talking about proprietary whatever is not a time - you are trying to sell it to me. So it is either you show to me what your API can do for me or it means you can not sell on this.
- It is not connecting to any existing sensors (they are all zigbee, zwave, X10 or something, but not wifi)
- It can not be integrated into any existing smarthome solution as for now.
- But you asking for money now.
The only advantage over the existing programmable thermostats you have is that there is a remote control. If I was on a market to buy a new one, I maybe would go. But the deal is a lot of us are not buying for the new construction, but looking to retrofit the existing line voltage heaters. It definitely doesn’t work for me to buy another standalone solution when I have already perfectly working Vera and I just want to buy something that works with my smarthome hub. So you want to make it wifi, great, but provide the ready plugin then.
It looks like your kickstarter will not go through, I would cancel it for now, regroup and do it again with redesigned and more appealing solution. Run a survey here and ask how many people would buy it with different features.
- zwave
- wifi
- cloud
- local control
Sorry for the bluntness
[quote=“ipstas, post:88, topic:179652”]You promise some API in the future but nothing ready yet, so we don’t know how we will be able to use it. And talking about proprietary whatever is not a time - you are trying to sell it to me. So it is either you show to me what your API can do for me or it means you can not sell on this.[/quote] Agreed. The server switching feature without a documented API is completely irrelevant with regards to what was previously discussed on this thread. It shouldn’t have been brought up.[quote=“ipstas, post:88, topic:179652”]It is not connecting to any existing sensors (they are all zigbee, zwave, X10 or something, but not wifi[/quote] Not directly but I think it could easily poll these sensors though the hub.[quote=“ipstas, post:88, topic:179652”]3. It can not be integrated into any existing smarthome solution as for now.
4. But you asking for money now.[/quote] Well that’s pretty much what you should expect from a kickstarter project. I funded Tablo last year and at the time I received the unit it was actually completely useless unless you had an iPad but that’s the idea and if you bet on the right horse you’ll end up with a fantastic device 6 months later. Here the main issue for me is that it’s likely that the thermostat will require a new firmware to implement cloudless remote capabilities which I’m afraid they might not be allowed to do after the certification process. [quote=“ipstas, post:88, topic:179652”]It looks like your kickstarter will not go through[/quote] I don’t think these people rely on this too much. I believe they are funded by the guy from the Cirque du Soleil. It’s probably more for publicity and they’ll release a statement like Although we didn’t reach our financial goal we consider this campaign a success as we gathered some excellent feedback … we will honor the pricing … etc.. Even if they reach their goal it will probably barely pay the certification.
@ipstas, I’ll happily concede that this product is not for you. Developing a product is not something you do based on opinions or feelings and the reason for my being here is to gather ideas and feedback. Thanks for expressing yours.
@Ninja robot from space, you are partially correct. The results of the Kickstarter campaign have no bearing on whether or not the product is happening since it’s already being manufactured. We wanted to add a number of features and make the launch product even better than our initial intentions, but it looks like that’s not going to happen
I believe they are funded by the guy from the Cirque du SoleilYou did your homeworks ! Clever of you to connect the dots, but alas, Guy Lalibert? is not involved in CaSA...
Even if they reach their goal it will probably barely pay the certification.Barely :)
@Ninja robot from space
Sure, it might poll sensors through existing smarthome hub. But the problem is it would use the nonexisting (for the moment and maybe never) api.
And I am a big believer in the right Kickstarter campaign, it can give you the great push. But it needs to be the right one, like Pebble for example. The message was clear, the solution was appealing, the results is $10M.
I am working myself for the startup and our kickstarter should be out in 4-6 month and we are trying to cross all t’s and dot all i’s before we are there. We are running numerous surveys, we are talking to people, we are trying to get the general feeling if this is the right product or we need to pivot now.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but again, you are running a kickstarter campaign, so you should be aware how your kickstarter looks like from the outer side and it is not just my opinion, it is your early adopters number.
I am happy you have secured funding, I hope I can use your product in the future. If/when you will have it integratable.
@ipstas, don’t worry about my feelings. I assure you forum talk has no grasp whatsoever on my person I very much stand by every word I’ve said so far and it’s quite okay if you disagree with it. I’m not selling what I don’t have.
Good luck with XLazz !
[quote=“T1000, post:84, topic:179652”]With a regular “dumb” programmable thermostat selling between 60 to 80 $, we didn’t feel we went overboard with the price. In fact, if you go further up in this thread, there’s a few people stating prices in the 100’s, with the side note that it’ll probably cost more. Obviously, volume is key, this is as good as we can make it for now. The savings part is much more complicated than a matter of sensors. A forced-air furnace or heat pump will move hot air very quickly, giving a cozy feeling in a pretty short time. Baseboard heaters rely on mass, that is the mass of everything in your house. It’s furniture, walls, etc. It has been proven scientifically that in this system, the use of real-time sensors brings no added-value, even being counter-productive at times. Efficiency is achieved through learning the thermodynamics involved in a house, then exploiting it. Again, not pulling this from thin air, the study that governs our development shows a 35% increase in efficiency… So let’s say 35% savings. On the outdoor sensor part you have a point. We will leverage the weather available online at first, but being that it’s not alway very reliable, we really want to see our own remote sensing device in our catalog. One thing at a time if we don’t want to screw it up :)[/quote] One of the unique aspects of electric heating is the ability to disable empty rooms. Also some people live in sunny California and really only need to heat bedrooms from say 6am to 8am. Also there is a mixed method of fan-forced and baseboard available in electric heated homes.
There is no greater saving than turning it off when the room is unoccupied. Thermal modeling is not mutually exclusive to occupancy sensing.
Right now you take away choice when you take away integration with home automation, and electric heat has many combinations.
Interesting comment. We felt that TRIAC switching was a given, we’ll clarify this. Mechanically speaking, we’re not different from what’s out there on the market, that is you can paint the casing if you want to and we use TRIAC switching and air cooling, although our configuration is quite different and results in a cooler device. Older electronic thermostats tend to heat up so much that they sometimes darken the paint above them over time. One could argue that a heating thermostat isn’t counterproductive, but we still see it as a parasitic effect.the other point I was going for is a 12-15A triac is pretty special - most line voltage stats are 3A for Triac, or a 10-15A relay on a 15 minutes duty cycle which suits hydronic and underfloor heating but not convection. A triac with convection heat with PID curves could make things much more comfortable that anyone else’s solution.
there is competition for Caleo…
it is called Sinop?, it is reasonably priced ($199 for wifi gateway and 2 thermostats, $69 for each additional thermostat) and it is available now.
you can buy online at sinopetech dot com or
it is also available at selected Rona stores (not online)
bought a kit yesterday at Rona, replaced 2 old thermostats in 20 minutes, activated in no time through the free web interface. straigth forward to connect and activate
nice and easy… will try that for a while and if no issues, then gone all other old thermostats and welcome remote contol of my baseboard heaters at my cottage…
is this the Holy Grail???
i called them twice before buying and got quick answers to my querries…
[quote=“goldbug”]there is competition for Caleo…
it is called Sinop?, it is reasonably priced ($199 for wifi gateway and 2 thermostats, $69 for each additional thermostat) and it is available now.
you can buy online at sinopetech dot com or
it is also available at selected Rona stores (not online)
bought a kit yesterday at Rona, replaced 2 old thermostats in 20 minutes, activated in no time through the free web interface. straigth forward to connect and activate
nice and easy… will try that for a while and if no issues, then gone all other old thermostats and welcome remote contol of my baseboard heaters at my cottage…
is this the Holy Grail???
i called them twice before buying and got quick answers to my querries…[/quote]
Woah, great find. So, basically, it does the stuff we want and cheaper than Caleo. Just need to find the API to send command to the Wifi Gateway and we are done!
yes that is it.
i talked to a guy at sinope tech on friday. he told me that the app development is ongoing…
would prefer to talk directly to the thermostat rather than through a website… the guy said this is on their to do list…
the Neviweb access point is pretty simple to setup and use…
Wow ;D
Great to know, the price is incredible…Like you say with a API, I buy that right now!
I am very exciting about this find. I have been looking for something like this for a while and not sure how I never came across this particular product. I have been leaning towards a ‘dumb’ system using a Verdant / Cadet V8-BB-7S, mainly because my desire is to have electric baseboards in a basement playroom turn on only when the room is occupied. I figured the Cadet would do exactly this, with the sacrifice being no easy remote control without some extra hacking measures. Now with this new find, I could perhaps use an existing zwave motion sensor in the room and (pending Vera integration) use these wifi/hub based thermostats instead. I look forward to feedback from anyone that has a chance to experiment with these and see where we might be able to go with an API/plugin.
Coming to this party late but a couple comments.
You can use any WiFi (or ZWave) thermostat to control baseboard style heaters. You do not need a line voltage thermostat.
Just use one of these devices (24VAC transformer with integral 24VAC contactor).
http://www.aubetech.com/products/produitsDetails.php?noLangue=2&noProduit=42
I’ve seen other thread where folks are suggesting using Vera to be the thermostat and no local control of the heater. This is a bad idea. If Vera ever got locked up the heater could be locked on 24x7. A leading cause of fires is electric heaters.
Always have a local control loop with a dedicated thermostat and then use Vera to modulate that.
CuriousB
Why would you use Aube relays and fish new wires to use any wifi thermostat when there is now a retrofit replacement for line voltage baseboard thermostats…
Simply remove the old thermostats and replace them with the Sinope wifi thermostats. Voila! no additional device to install in the baseboard or near the panel and no new wires to fish. the Aube relay alone is almost as expensive as the wifi thermostat.
Despite the web interface and the missing API, this remains the simplest and most cost effective solution out there. Cant get any easier…