I’ve seen other thread where folks are suggesting using Vera to be the thermostat and no local control of the heater. This is a bad idea. If Vera ever got locked up the heater could be locked on 24x7. A leading cause of fires is electric heaters.
Always have a local control loop with a dedicated thermostat and then use Vera to modulate that.[/quote]
Yes, this solution has been available for quite some time now. I agree that a local control is not an option but a safety requirement to avoid fire issue. It is even more a fire issue with the Aube Relay, because the baseboard is OFF or 100% ON until it reach the temperature, so it doesnt have pulse heating at all. This is bad and not efficient at all.
These baseboard devices are safety certified to operate with and on/off style thermostat controlling them. They go through a barrage of test and have failsafe aspects to them (high limit switch) for this very reason. To suggest a pulse or variable control is safer is just an opinion. You could easily argue it is less safe because now you have a thermostat element that generates heat (triac self heating).
As for heating efficiency kW in = BTU out, resistive heat by definition is 100% efficient.
[quote=“goldbug, post:100, topic:179652”]Why would you use Aube relays and fish new wires to use any wifi thermostat when there is now a retrofit replacement for line voltage baseboard thermostats…
Simply remove the old thermostats and replace them with the Sinope wifi thermostats. Voila! no additional device to install in the baseboard or near the panel and no new wires to fish. the Aube relay alone is almost as expensive as the wifi thermostat.[/quote]
I have two Honeywell WiFi thermostats and love them (but I have Forced Air Gas Heat). The Honeywell web service is no charge to Honeywell customers so I am not paying a monthly fee.
I wonder about temperature accuracy with a Triac based thermostat. I know lots of people make them (non wifi) but I have to wonder what that point heat source within the thermostat does to the accuracy of temp readings.
not everybody is lucky like you to have central heat. At my cottage i have 11 baseboard thermostats, one in each room on 3 levels. the best setup (least invasive) with aube relays is to install them near the pannel in the basement, connect them to 3 wifi thermostats, one on each level which requires to fish new 24v wires to the 3 thermostats… not a simple proposition without some wall/ceiling dammage. i tried to figure out a path of least dammage… not simple. Then, once all is good, you need to make sure all doors are kept open on all levels, before leaving. not possible to adjust heat in rooms based on usage and other drawbacks of adjusting baseboard heat.
with the retrofit wifi thermostats all i need to do is replace the existing thermoststs, hook them up the wifi gateway, voila all fully integrated and wifi connected.
yes there is a risk the startup goes belly up… or actually get swallowed by a bigger fish like most start up do. there is a competition on this front now. Sinope and Caleo. Sinope beat Caleo to the market, is already available, half the price and with a simpler web-based application. retrofit is so simple and cost effective. dont mind the risk.
i have been waiting for this for a long time for this…
Ordered the starter kit last weekend and received it within 2 business days. Installation was a charm (less than 30 minutes for the 2 thermostats including configuration). The only complaint I can think of is the mechanism opening the front panel to access the fixation screws. It’s not straightforward to get it back in place.[quote=“goldbug, post:96, topic:179652”]i talked to a guy at sinope tech on friday. he told me that the app development is ongoing…[/quote]Operation so far is flawless and the web interface is responsive enough. I don’t think I would install a dedicated app if it existed. At the very least I can live without.
Right now it relies on a cloud service, even more than Caleo as the local user interface on the thermostat can only be used to control the set-point. It relies entirely on the cloud service for programming but there’s indeed a web server listening on port 80 (but not 443) on the gateway. As soon as they come up with a firmware release for the gateway allowing us to bypass their server then I think I’m installing these all over the place. The only thing holding be back is the fact that the gateways talks to the thermostats over a proprietary protocol. If the gateway fails and the company goes out of business or that they stop supporting/manufacturing this line of products then all these thermostats are likely good for trash.
Connected 8 Sinope thermostats at my cottage ($195 for gateway and 2 thermostats kit at Rona, and 6 additional thermostats from Sinope at $65 each). Quite reasonable considering that Stelpro replacement programmable thermostats cost about that much.
Sinope delivered for free the thermostats and they arrived the next day!
less than 1 hour for the installation.
Linking to gateway was a breeze.
Wifi linking also a breeze.
Programming through neviweb slow but very straight forward.
Some nice features: the settings tells you the load connected to each thermostat and consumption statistics…
Just received a starter kit from sinope’. It was really easy to set-up.
Well see how they work.
Not very fond of a 2 wire thermostat for a 240v heater. I hear they are coming out with a 4 wire soon.
If anyone can sort out a good way to tie these in with an occupancy sensor then please share. My current thought is a generic zwave motion sensor sending to vera and a plugin making an http call from vera to the neviweb server to adjust the setpoint. I know there is no published API yet, but maybe some sniffing and creativity will suffice.
before i pirchased the thermostats i did call twice to inquire about their product.
they were very friendly and i did talk to a tech person who indicsted that an api eas in their to do list…
I spoke to Sinope Tech and they claimed that there are going to release other products in the future. That is why the network can handle hundreds of devices. When they will who knows?
You can query the little black box from the home network , so a api would not be out of the question. I’ll try to use putty when I get home.
Are you referring to 4 wire as in 240VAC Lines? Or 4 wire as in thermostat R, C, W, G?
Why? There is no need to switch both legs of the 240VAC for NEC compliance. You need a disconnect (for maintenance), but the breaker can often be considered the disconnect for a circuit unless it is too far away.
Not fond of 2 wire line voltage 240 volt thermostats. You cannot use the thermostat as a disconnect as there is no way to properly turn off power to the heater other than the breaker for servicing.
In order to be code compliant you need to be able to disconnect All power to the heater within sight. If not you can install a breaker lockout, but how many will use that. I prefer a two pole thermostat for 240v with a positive off for servicing. That way you can safely seasonally clean the heater.
Oh it appears that the Sinope’ thermostat uses WiMi RF protocol from MicroChip. It is another wireless mesh technology similar to Zwave and Zigbee . Other product types may be on the horizon from sinope.
[quote=“zmistro, post:114, topic:179652”]Oh it appears that the Sinope’ thermostat uses WiMi RF protocol from MicroChip. It is another wireless mesh technology Zigbee similar to Zwave an. Other product types may be on the horizon.[/quote] Based on the FCC filing I saw that is uses Microchip’s 7693A-89XAM9A but found little infos on it besides the fact that it operates in the 903MHz-927MHz spectrum and when I asked Sinope I was told that the thermostat-gateway communication relies on a proprietary protocol. From was I see MiWi (not WiMi) doesn’t specify on one end the RF layer (and it’s typically implemented for the 2.4GHz band not the 900MHz) and the application layer at the other end. It doesn’t look like these thermostats will ever be able to operate directly with a generic home automation gateway or that the gateway will ever be able to operate with devices manufactured by a third party.
[quote=“Ninja robot from space, post:115, topic:179652”][quote=“zmistro, post:114, topic:179652”]Oh it appears that the Sinope’ thermostat uses WiMi RF protocol from MicroChip. It is another wireless mesh technology Zigbee similar to Zwave an. Other product types may be on the horizon.[/quote] Based on the FCC filing I saw that is uses Microchip’s 7693A-89XAM9A but found little infos on it besides the fact that it operates in the 903MHz-927MHz spectrum and when I asked Sinope I was told that the thermostat-gateway communication relies on a proprietary protocol. From was I see MiWi (not WiMi) doesn’t specify on one end the RF layer (and it’s typically implemented for the 2.4GHz band not the 900MHz) and the application layer at the other end. It doesn’t look like these thermostats will ever be able to operate directly with a generic home automation gateway or that the gateway will ever be able to operate with devices manufactured by a third party.
Sorry of the MiWi WiMi typo. I beg to differ about the ability for Vera to communicate with this system -Not Directly with the thermostat or other devices of course but through the little black box. Not all cross platform systems do it directly. It really makes no difference in how these days. All Vera needs to do is poll the web interface locally or via the web. Locally would be better. Local communications are not blocked by the internal web server. So it is just a matter as to knowing what to query.[/quote]
[quote=“zmistro, post:116, topic:179652”][quote=“Ninja robot from space, post:115, topic:179652”][quote=“zmistro, post:114, topic:179652”]Oh it appears that the Sinope’ thermostat uses WiMi RF protocol from MicroChip. It is another wireless mesh technology Zigbee similar to Zwave an. Other product types may be on the horizon.[/quote] Based on the FCC filing I saw that is uses Microchip’s 7693A-89XAM9A but found little infos on it besides the fact that it operates in the 903MHz-927MHz spectrum and when I asked Sinope I was told that the thermostat-gateway communication relies on a proprietary protocol. From was I see MiWi (not WiMi) doesn’t specify on one end the RF layer (and it’s typically implemented for the 2.4GHz band not the 900MHz) and the application layer at the other end. It doesn’t look like these thermostats will ever be able to operate directly with a generic home automation gateway or that the gateway will ever be able to operate with devices manufactured by a third party.[/quote]Sorry of the MiWi WiMi typo. I beg to differ about the ability for Vera to communicate with this system -Not Directly with the thermostat or other devices of course but through the little black box. Not all cross platform systems do it directly. It really makes no difference in how these days. All Vera needs to do is poll the web interface locally or via the web. Locally would be better. Local communications are not blocked by the internal web server. So it is just a matter as to knowing what to query.[/quote] Developing a Vera plugin interfacing the cloud service and eventually the gateway (little black box) is certainly possible and even straightforward but then the thermostat-gateway communication protocol is irrelevant. My main concern is if the gateway fails a few years from now and that this line of products stops being manufactured what can I do with all the thermostats I purchased if they can only be programmed through such gateway over a proprietary protocol.
[quote=“zmistro, post:113, topic:179652”]Not fond of 2 wire line voltage 240 volt thermostats. You cannot use the thermostat as a disconnect as there is no way to properly turn off power to the heater other than the breaker for servicing.
In order to be code compliant you need to be able to disconnect All power to the heater within sight. If not you can install a breaker lockout, but how many will use that. I prefer a two pole thermostat for 240v with a positive off for servicing. That way you can safely seasonally clean the heater.[/quote]
To each his own. If I have a single pole thermostat that meets my needs I’d forgo the second pole as a disconnect as it isn’t required. For once a year cleaning (if even that) its not too taxing to flip the breaker off for 15 minutes. Makes for a much less crowded junction box as well.
[quote=“zmistro, post:119, topic:179652”]Some type of Disco is REQUIRED. If not in sight of the heater a breaker lock-out device is required!
So yes and a matter of where.[/quote]
Yes, of course a disconnect is required but what is wrong with using the breaker? Personally I’d never trust the thermostat as a disconnect anyway. I use the breaker to turn off power to all my other electrical circuits I don’t see why it wouldn’t be good enough for baseboard heaters.