I am looking for a wired smoke detector that can integrate with vera. I checked all the brands I can think of and checked Amazon but the only one I could find that is both wired and supports z-wave is from Nest. It’s a nice looking one but a bit big and most importantly rather expensive. Are there any alternatives that don’t require installing a local converter and replace the battery with the output of the converter?
I sparked some fire in this thread already regarding this.
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,29833.0.html
Bottomline is no, there isn’t yet. Do you have hardwired smokes already? I would say the best option right now if you need hardwired smokes or even better already have hard wired smokes is to install an inline adaptor to a wireless contact.
http://www.amazon.com/Kidde-SM120X-Detector-Hardwired-I-Combo/dp/B001AYERC2
This is not to convert the power or remove batteries or anything. The wired smokes are all interlinked to each other and when one goes off it sends high voltage to the rest. Well this relay is made to go inline (just like all the smokes) and when that high voltage comes down it closes this relay same as a door or window sensor. You can hardwire a z-wave door or window sensor to this and it will trip in Vera when any one of the smokes go off. The relay is made to do this for alarm panels as a way to intergrate high voltage smokes into the low voltage inputs of an alarm panel. Same principle here.
What people don’t like vs. z-wave is this doesn’t monitor the backup battery in the smokes (no battery read out in vera) it also doesn’t give you each smoke individually to know which on tripped. So no worse then having the hardwired smokes but no big gain besides notification if they go off. If you already have smokes you can add this setup for around 40 buxs. Super cheap vs. buying all z-wave smokes or worse yet NEST.
Just some options for you.
Also newer houses here in CALI have sprinkler systems. Most if not all also have a water valve sensor on the main input that triggers the siren and flashing light outside. Mine also has 2 inputs and outputs on this. I was able to also wire this in and now get notifications not only from smokes, but if a sprinkler goes off and water starts flowing I get a different notification.
Thanks for the detailed response. I googled the forums but did not see this thread. We do not have dogs so that already eliminates a big issue 
We are doing a remodel and I try to have as few battery powered devices as possible. This includes smoke detectors. I see the point of battery backups for hardwired devices. If one starts chirping I will just replace the battery. I expect this to happen less frequently than with a purely battery powered detector, hence I already gained convenience.
I need to research the device you listed some more. Reading through the description on Amazon, it seems I would install this locally along with each Kidde smoke detector. Then I have a couple of cables going back to my vera where I can monitor the status of each smoke detector and then trigger other devices. That seems too cumbersome (extra cabling, limited reporting).
As alternative to the above, I did come across a z-wave device that can detect the sound of a siren. Since our house will be relatively small (2 stories, less than 2,500 sqf) I think one such sensor might be enough. In this case I can use regular non-z-wave smoke detectors. Has anybody tried this?
Sprinkler system? Don’t get me started on that. We were told we don’t need it. Now we need to file some paperwork that determines if we do need it or do not need it. We are being told that needing it easily adds $20k - $30k to the remodel >:( >:( On the radio they just said how fires cost a few (precious) lives last year and how sprinkler systems could have saved those lives. Did it really need a sprinkler system or would have a smoke alert with charged batteries been enough…?! And I am not even mentioning all the fire retardant stuff they need in newer homes… No wonder CA is broke… Ok, getting a bit off-topic but in my opinion wired smoke alarms systems are the way to go.
@integlikewhoa - The California sprinkler requirements are for private homes or for commercial/Multi family Dwellings? If for private, is it applicable to all or is there a size threshold? It sounds like a pain from an aesthetics and cost perspective. They probably make you put “causes cancer” stickers next to every sprinkler as well. ;D
@maja - You’re not clear on the integration concept. Assuming that your smoke detectors are hardwired and interconnected, as most are, you install a single smoke detector relay connected to a single Z-Wave door/window sensor. There is no hardwired connection to Vera.
See this original thread; Success! Interfacing my smoke detector/CO with VeraLite, for how-to.
[quote=“maja, post:3, topic:186583”]We are doing a remodel and I try to have as few battery powered devices as possible. This includes smoke detectors. I see the point of battery backups for hardwired devices. If one starts chirping I will just replace the battery. I expect this to happen less frequently than with a purely battery powered detector, hence I already gained convenience.[/quote] Agreed, so you have no wired smokes now? you gonna be running high voltage wiring to all your smokes now right? Again I don’t know where you live or your rules but now they are all interconnected to each smoke and you’ll need a bunch.
[quote=“maja, post:3, topic:186583”]I need to research the device you listed some more. Reading through the description on Amazon, it seems I would install this locally along with each Kidde smoke detector. Then I have a couple of cables going back to my vera where I can monitor the status of each smoke detector and then trigger other devices. That seems too cumbersome (extra cabling, limited reporting).[/quote]I’m sure your smokes are interconnected or will be required to. (one goes off they all go off) you only need one relay for this and you can find them for 8.00 or my link was 15.00. Wiring back to vera will do nothing. VERA has no input triggers on it. So there is no where to plug it into vera. So no extra wires. For me mine is wired into a home alarm and at this point thats what I would recommend. If you don’t have an alarm and are doing a major remod now is the time. If you have an alarm (do you?) you can tie your smokes to that and kill 2 birds with one stone. Vera connects to the alarm. if you don’t want to run wires to vera or an alarm panel then you need to use wireless sensor, which takes batteries in the sensor. Either option is almost the same but you need a wireless z-wave or a wireless alarm sensor. Same wiring for both same idea for both. The wireless signal for all smokes then gets sent back to the alarm panel or vera.
EDIT: I saw your already posting about which alarm panel. Tie your smokes to your alarm using the relay I posted run a wire is best but if the rest of your doors and windows are all wireless (taking batteries like you said you don’t want) then do this also in wireless it’s no different then another window or zone.
[quote=“maja, post:3, topic:186583”]As alternative to the above, I did come across a z-wave device that can detect the sound of a siren. Since our house will be relatively small (2 stories, less than 2,500 sqf) I think one such sensor might be enough. In this case I can use regular non-z-wave smoke detectors. Has anybody tried this?[/quote] Sounds like a worse Idea, see above.
[quote=“maja, post:3, topic:186583”]Sprinkler system? Don’t get me started on that. We were told we don’t need it. Now we need to file some paperwork that determines if we do need it or do not need it. We are being told that needing it easily adds $20k - $30k to the remodel >:( >:( On the radio they just said how fires cost a few (precious) lives last year and how sprinkler systems could have saved those lives. Did it really need a sprinkler system or would have a smoke alert with charged batteries been enough…?! And I am not even mentioning all the fire retardant stuff they need in newer homes… No wonder CA is broke… Ok, getting a bit off-topic but in my opinion wired smoke alarms systems are the way to go.[/quote] My house in Cali is actually older and I haven’t done any major remod so it doesn’t have sprinklers. My house in Arizona (HAVASU) was built in 2005 and has sprinklers built in. I have veras at both. Since the option was there it was easy to add 2 wires from the sprinkler sensor to the alarm panel as add that as an option. If there is no smoke but the sprinklers go off I get a notification. Hope this never happens but annual tests (required by regulations) so it works.
Sprinklers in garage and carport have no smokes. So if it goes off or if one ever brakes before it floods the house real bad atleast I’ll get a notification that my house has pool inside.
It’s not only California, like I said before my house in Arizona is actually the one that has it. But I know new houses or major remods require it to be installed. These are residential homes. The one in AZ is only 2,200 sf single story. I don’t know all the rules on when you do need them or not, but I know almost all new homes being built today have them. (like airbags in a car) Older houses are not forced to install them unless your doing something major and I think they have a % worth of the house and probley, Sf and other rules that tell you if required or not. But adding 1,000SF of your old house would more then likely make you add sprinklers and other new code items in your older house (that wasn’t required when it was built).
I haven’t see the cancer stickers next to the sprinklers yet… Those only go on the wall receptacles/outlets for now. ;D
Thanks for the detailed responses. I really appreciate it. So wiring everything to the alarm system is the way to go. I have a couple more questions regarding this relay. Did you install this close to one of the smoke alarms and then extend two of the 3 cable on the switch side of the relay to the security system. Or did extend the orange cable of one of the smoke alarms to the security system and install the relay there (with the 110V taken locally)?
Also does this relay only work with FirstAlert or with any wired smoke detector that can be interconnected (which I assume are about all these days).
Edit: I also checked the code and it seems they now require a smoke detector in each bedroom. Further, they recommend smoke detectors in each hallway leading to a bedroom. Also for new homes they need to be hardwired and interconnected. This is CA code but it sounds like they just took over the International Residential Code.
[quote=“maja, post:7, topic:186583”]Thanks for the detailed responses. I really appreciate it. So wiring everything to the alarm system is the way to go. I have a couple more questions regarding this relay. Did you install this close to one of the smoke alarms and then extend two of the 3 cable on the switch side of the relay to the security system. Or did extend the orange cable of one of the smoke alarms to the security system and install the relay there (with the 110V taken locally)?
Also does this relay only work with FirstAlert or with any wired smoke detector that can be interconnected (which I assume are about all these days).
Edit: I also checked the code and it seems they now require a smoke detector in each bedroom. Further, they recommend smoke detectors in each hallway leading to a bedroom. Also for new homes they need to be hardwired and interconnected. This is CA code but it sounds like they just took over the International Residential Code.[/quote]
All smokes are same not just for firstalert, same for alarm panels. it’s just a relay to convert the open close of the High voltage to an open close of the low voltage for what ever your use is. In this case it wil be for an alarm panel.
I installed the relay in the metal junction box above one of the smokes. So it was installed at the closest smoke to the alarm panel… Or the easiest one to get to. When one trips it sends power to all so don’t matter where you install the relay long as its in the circuit. And yes my newer house has something like 8 or 10 smokes. That’s why buying them all z-wave is expensive and I was fine with this relay.
It’s way eaiser and safer to run a 2 or 4 conductor tiny alarm wire from the panel to the relay then to try and run (more expensive) romex from the smoke to the relay. So I ran alarm wire from the nearest/eaisest smoke to the alarm panel. I actually have most of my alarm system Hardwired. No batteries. Also Motions on batteries like to sleep and are slower to respond, that presents problems when you use them to trigger lights and such. I’m a hug fan of hardwiring. Both my houses are single stories and with long drill bits, electrical fishing sticks and some persistence wire can be ran without opening walls, dispite what people normally think. That’s how all alarms were installed several years back. Now they come out with double sided tape and stick the sensor on the wall and leave. Door and window sensors cost 1.50 and are invisible. Motions are 10-20.00 buckss wired. 40-60 wireless.
Do research before you make your decision. With a major remod now is your chance. Also your alarm I would not try and get something that can control your a/c and other things. Just get an alarm. Vera or any other home automation controller will merge those things. Alarm keypads and a/c thermostats hang on walls and never get used in my house. Automation sets the alarm when you leave and cancels when you get home, manual controls can be made from your phone or tablet, a tablet can be set on a table mounted on a wall. It will merge everything for you. Trying to get some big colorful alarm keypad with weather is just gonna be to limited and in the way. Mount a 50-100.00 tablet there instead and you can customize it for what ever. change app or software to what ever look you want (your style will change yearly or mothly and this will adapt to that). With the alarm its gonna get outdated fast and you can’t change the software layout or anything.
Minor note … the signaling for Smoke detectors is usually 9 - 12V between the neutral wire and the red wire.
You can also apply 9V on this wire to initiate an alarm. The relays often have a step-down circuit that can be use for the voltage source. Although it’s against code in many place to initiate a fire alarm from a not fire alarm sensor. I have a relay to sense detection and to initiate the alarm. It’s nice to have a WHOLE house alarm.
Richard: Thanks for the info. You said “I have a relay to sense detection and to initiate the alarm”. Are you saying that you detect an alarm just as integlikewhoa explained. But on top of that you have a second relay to trigger an alarm yourself (like when your security system detects a break-in, when you detect flooding/water in the house, etc)? If so how is this hooked up, in particular that second relay?
integlikewhoa: Great info! You mentioned $1.5 for the door and window sensors. May I ask what model you use? I was looking at something like the Honeywell MPS9WG which runs about $5. It’s not so much the cost but just to see what you are actually using.
Also what model do you use for the motion sensors? Are you using them in each bedroom, hallway, living room, etc? I am thinking of pulling wires and then install the actual sensors as I see a need coming up.
The reason I mentioned having HVAC control on the security panel is to avoid clutter (only one panel). I do see your point, though. Maybe building a box and integrating a small tablet is better. You said you have two wall controls that are not being used. So do you still have them in a particular area (close to entry) or did you ban them into a closet?
Talking about outdated, it seems all security system go to the cloud and require paying monthly fees. So one challenge to chose a security system is selecting one that doesn’t suddenly force me into such a setup when expanding on functionality. That’s kind of hard to predict, though.
[quote=“maja, post:10, topic:186583”]integlikewhoa: Great info! You mentioned $1.5 for the door and window sensors. May I ask what model you use? I was looking at something like the Honeywell MPS9WG which runs about $5. It’s not so much the cost but just to see what you are actually using.[/quote] Honestly I don’t remeber the excat model but they just like your link but not honeywell brand. I think I bought these ones.
[quote=“maja, post:10, topic:186583”]Also what model do you use for the motion sensors? Are you using them in each bedroom, hallway, living room, etc? I am thinking of pulling wires and then install the actual sensors as I see a need coming up.[/quote] I bought a bunch of these for 9.99 each. Have them everywhere not for security but for automation of the lights. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SENTROL-6000-MOTION-DETECTOR-PIR-/310258955753?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483cdff5e9
I have 2 big dogs, I would get a non pet version for stronger sensitivity if you don’t have pets.
[quote=“maja, post:10, topic:186583”]The reason I mentioned having HVAC control on the security panel is to avoid clutter (only one panel). I do see your point, though. Maybe building a box and integrating a small tablet is better. You said you have two wall controls that are not being used. So do you still have them in a particular area (close to entry) or did you ban them into a closet?[/quote] I actually have 2 alarm key pads I can honestly say I have only used to program the system. my wife has never used it a doesn’t even know the code. Altho ofcourse the alarm is used everyday. So when people want to spend big money on keypads and put several in the house I just think how often I use mine. It good to have it out but if I were to do it today I would mount the keypad next to the panel and not near the entry.
I have zoned a/c systems so each bed room and the hallway have a TRANE z-wave thermostat. 90% of the time we also don’t touch those. Some times passing by we might kick it on or off for a reason, but with zone systems its even easier to use your phone or tablet as if not you need to walk to each room and change the thermostat. So really they just look pretty on the wall also. I personally wouldn’t spend hundereds on each thermostat either. I actually had touch screen honeywells before and when I decided to intergrate to VERA I have to by 7 new thermostates that don’t look as nice as the old ones but I no longer need to manually use them. My phone has a list of each room all in one place, but scenes take care of it automatically to a certain extent anyways.
[quote=“maja, post:10, topic:186583”]Talking about outdated, it seems all security system go to the cloud and require paying monthly fees. So one challenge to chose a security system is selecting one that doesn’t suddenly force me into such a setup when expanding on functionality. That’s kind of hard to predict, though.[/quote] Again for me vera handles the fancy stuff. the Alarm just gets all the inputs and ties them to vera. I don’t need my alarm in the cloud, vera is. I don’t need weather or cameras on my alarm. New alarm panels expect you to not have vera. They want you to pay 60.00 a month to get what you get with vera for free. They offer you mobile control/ cloud access, and light switches, weather, cameras and notifications. For me just get the simple alarm system and tie to your controller. They all use serial control, so if you dump vera the next controller will support it.
Also for upgrades. The alarm control will not change or update like home automation controller will. VERA has many different apps, many different devices, and everyday it expands. My roomba, my sprinklers all added to be controller from one app. Alarm panel even with all the bells a whistles won’t off you much and will get outdated fast. So spending 200.00 on a color touch screen keypad with weather is more then vera cost and its functions are limited.
I personally have a GE panel, but DSC and Honeywells are also popular. All end up in the same place. Besides the wireless sensors and keypads the components are the same. Sirens, power supply, battery backup, wired door and window contacts, wired smokes, glass break, and many more components are swap-able. Honeywell adaptor is like 80.00 for conneting to vera. GE is 15.00 not sure how much DSC is.
Thanks again for the detailed answers. I did quite a bit more research into security panels and had some questions regarding your setup.
- Which GE panel and adapter do you use? Is there a plugin for it?
- Do you homerun each sensor and if so did you put each on a different zone?
- How do you arm/disarm the security system? Through scenes that are triggered by putting vera into Home/Away/Night/Vacation mode?
- How do you check which zone has an issue (open door/window, etc)?
- You said your phone has a list of all rooms. Which app are you using? Vera, VeraMate, something else?
- For your zoned a/c system do you use z-wave controlled exit vents, dampers inside the ducts of something else?
[quote=“maja, post:12, topic:186583”]Thanks again for the detailed answers. I did quite a bit more research into security panels and had some questions regarding your setup.
- Which GE panel and adapter do you use? Is there a plugin for it?
- Do you homerun each sensor and if so did you put each on a different zone?
- How do you arm/disarm the security system? Through scenes that are triggered by putting vera into Home/Away/Night/Vacation mode?
- How do you check which zone has an issue (open door/window, etc)?
- You said your phone has a list of all rooms. Which app are you using? Vera, VeraMate, something else?
- For your zoned a/c system do you use z-wave controlled exit vents, dampers inside the ducts of something else?[/quote]
I use a NX8-E GE/Caddx. Yes there is a plugin and I have no issues with it but I think the Vista 20p is better for you and more popular. Probley easier to program too.
Yes homerun each sensor and add to separate zone. If not they will be grouped in vera and you don’t want that. Only time it might be ok is if you have 2 windows side by side probley ok to run as one. But separate gives you the most information on which is open and closed.
When the plugin is installed in vera you will get a device for each zone, and you get a master arm disarm and such. You can then use vera apps to remote use or you can set a scene up to auto run. I personally use PLEG for all my scenes. The basic scenes in VERA you’ll find don’t allow many options. When you try to add to many conditions to run a scene you need to get into PLEG to accomplish your tasks.
When you program your alarm panel you can name each zone so you know which is which on the keypad. Also when you install the plugin in VERA you again have to name the zones. So in Vera you’ll know by name what is what.
I use Imperihome most as I’m an Andriod fan. But I have setup Homewave on iOS for other family members. Those are my two favorite. I’m not a fan of the apps that just list same as vera UI. I like custom tiles and icons. So I can make it look like I want. I never use the stock VERA apps. I have used Authomation before and still have it but don’t use much. On iOS I use VeraMate for geofencing as there is not a good stand alone program for geofencing on ios like there is for andriod. Vera alerts and Vera proximity are also my go to. So on my andriod I use Vera alerts to get spoken voice alerts from vera, I use vera proximity to handle my geofences, and Imperihome to control anything I need to. That’s the full package for the most part. On iOS I use VeraMate for geofences, Prowl (Vera Alerts plugin in Vera sends it to prowl on phone) for notifications (but no spoken) and Homewave to control. Same goes for tablets.
I use a honeywell TRUEzone 4 zone control panel, dampers in the ducts and TRANE TZEMT500AB32MAA thermostates.
integlikewhoa, thanks again for all the answers and input. This is very helpful. I appreciate it!