tt55du, I’m not an electrician (just a lowly EE) so this is my best ‘guess’.
A resistive load is the same value through time, so the beginning application of a set voltage causes the same current to flow as the second the voltage is removed E=IR.
A tungsten load is NOT continuous. The initial inrush current is much higher than the steady state current. That is because as the tungsten (light bulb filament) heats, its resistance increases and so the current drops. I’m guessing the 8.3 Amps is the steady state current being spec’d.
A space heater (especially the cheap ones) are going to be similar to a tungsten load, but I don’t know the ratio of inrush vs steady state current.
Wattage doesn’t mean much to a relay. Voltage causes arcing of the contacts so the higher the voltage, the worse the arcing and eventual failure.
Current is a function of the thickness of the relay conductor. Thin metal won’t carry as much current as thicker metal.
Safety issues are hard to guess as they depend on the design of the relay enclosure. If the inrush current doesn’t last too long and isn’t too high, the relay will likely not be damaged, but again, it depends. A relay failure should NOT cause a fire, but that’s a should not, not a WILL NOT. Most likely the relay will just fail prematurely.
That all said, go for the CA3500 based on ratings. You’ll sleep better.
I am an electrician. I work for a Heating and Cooling Automation controls company.
Don’t hook any appliance up to vera that could potentially start a fire or create any hazardous situation. Just don’t do it.
Just think. What happens if the dongle freezes up? The router freezes up. You lose internet connection. What happens if a hacker punches through Vera’s security?
The convenience just isn’t worth the potential risk.
Working with the product for over a year I can say that Vera is not 100% reliable in day to day operation.
You make a good point with the dongle locking up. I might hold off now, or consider leaving it out of all scenes and controlling it with a different zwave controller that is more reliable (such as my leviton controller).
however, as an electrician do you agree with what LVince had to say about the load support. The CA3500 is definitely better, but I already own two HA01 units. I don’t want to have to buy a CA3500.
reading through the specs, the CA3500 should be completely safe handling the load.
My concerns are still the security/reliability of whats controlling the load as I discussed in my previous post.
If you can list 1 good reason to control the heater using Vera, and at the same time list 5 good reasons not to control the heater from Vera, the choice should be obvious.
Mark makes a very good point, and thanks for bringing that risk to my attention.
However, one does have to weigh the risks. Is the risk of Vera Failing/Vera being hacked/Vera whatever more than the risk of me forgetting to turn off the space heater (which unfortunatly has happened more than once). In my case, forgetting is much more likely to occur.
So I have programmed Vera to attempt to turn off the space heater in two additional scenes. Hopefully between the three scenes (the original turn off scene, and the additional two fail safe scenes), the job will get done.
I also use an oil-filled space heater, as I believe it is safer than other types, should it end up running unattended.
If your goal is just to make sure that the outlet for the heater is only available at certain times of day, and NORMALLY the plan is to shut the heater off at the heater, then the Vera works as a backup to you forgetting to turn the heater off (not a bad idea).
If your goal is to turn the heater on ‘unattended’, that’s a bad idea for just about any space heater. I’m willing to bet that even the oil filled ones say “Don’t use unattended”.
So, if you ARE using Vera as a backup safety device, the ‘best’ idea is to have an event (NOT A TIMER) that turns the heater on OR you turn the outlet on with the push button on the Zwave outlet, and then use a timer to turn it off. That might be the best you can do.
So…
(1) Always turn the heater off at the heater.
(2) Never let Vera turn the heater on automatically (and leaving the work automatically off is even better).
(3) Have Vera turn the outlet off at some prescribed time every day, and maybe even every hour (or 2 or 3).
But don’t minimize Mark’s advice and more so, “never leave an appliance on attended that could create a safety issue”
If you forget to turn the heater off then you’ve already put yourself and your property at risk. Why increase your risks of a tragedy by adding another source of danger to the equation.
1 + 1 = 2
you + vera = twice as likely a hazardous event will occur.
Originally one could turn the heater off, or forget and leave it on. Two states 1 good, 1 bad.
With Vera, one could (1) turn the heater off, Or (2) one could leave it on and Vera could turn it off or, (3) one could leave it on and Vera could NOT turn it off (through error, hack, or whatever). Three states 2 good, 1 bad.
The 4th state (Vera turns on a heater one turned off) cannot exist.
All things be equal, Vera can only improve the situation. Now, if one gets lazy and relies on Vera to turn it off, that’s a game changer. Now you have two states again, Vera leaves it on or Vera turns it off. It’s as likely Vera makes one mistake as another, so it’s still 1 good, 1 bad.
I still say ‘never leave a space heater on unattended’. I don’t care if you have Vera or not. This is fundamentally important and should not be ignored.
As you know, home heating systems are designed with over temp sensors (and now updraft sensors) so if there is a failure of some type, the system shuts down. Besides that, the flame is contained in an (almost) sealed unit. This is why we’re not concerned about using programmable thermostats or even a temperamental Vera with a Zwave thermostat. Modern HVAC systems are designed to be ‘safe’.
Space heaters are fundamentally not as safe and extra care needs to be taken. Personally, I unplug mine when not in use.
Somewhat following this conversation, and not doing it myself, couldn’t you just create a timer or scene to only turn OFF the heater via Vera? Never on?
I have been thinking of the risks in putting a space heater into a Vera controlled Zwave plug. There have been comments that adding Vera increases the risks rather than decreases the risks. Let me look at it closer:
The risk I am addressing is the chance of accidently leaving the space heater on when I leave home for the day. Lets aasume that I forget to turn it off 10% of the time, or one out of every 10 days. Which means the heater is left on unattended one out of every 10 days, which is definately not a good situation.
Okay, lets put the heater under control of Vera. Lets then assume Vera also fails 10% of the time (Vera is much more reliable than that, but let us be pessimistic). So again the heater would be left on 1 out of every 10 days. Also not good.
Now lets assume that I always try to turn the heater off, even though its plugged into a Zwave plug. If on the day I forget and leave it on, but Vera has shut down the plug, no problem as the heater will be off. On the day that Vera fails to shut off the plug, and I have turned off the heater, then again no problem as the heater is again off. So the only problem is if I forget to turn off the heater on the same day that Vera fails to turn off the plug. The odds of both “failures” occuring on the same day are now 1 in 100, or 1 day out of 100 days. Big improvement over 1 out of 10 days we had before.
But the discussion has made me worried, so maybe I will program one of my HA07s to also attempt to turn off the plug. Assuming again a 10% failure rate on the HA07, the odds of all three failures occuring on the same day are now 1 in 1000, or one day in 3 years. Even better!
Of course the failure estimates are only estimates, and your odds will be different than mine. And this only addresses the possibility of leaving the heater on unattended.
So I conclude that putting the space heater into a Vera controlled plug adds a level of safety that I do not get by putting the space heater in a normal AC outlet. But what about if the Space Heater causes the Zwave plug itself to fail catastrophically? Well, that question is what the OP is originally asking.
Thanks aa6vh for bringing this back to the original point. I agree with your train of thought on safety and I too would use it as a back-up device and would include it in my “all-off” scene in the morning when I leave for work.
So anyone, a space heater in an intermatic HA01?
I think we all agree that is a bad idea to put it in a zwave appliance plugin
and using a CA3500 is safe.
But I have two new HA01’s new and still in box and I want to see if I need to sell or junk them.
As stated above never leave a space heater on un-attended whether automated or not. Must see at least a 1/2 dozen news stories a year on space heater fires if not more(Florida).
That being said currently there 5 different Z-Wave Receptacles on the market including the new Leviton VRR15-1LZ receptacle. All receptacles are rated for 15 Amps. The difference in the receptacles are the components that were used when building the device. The CA3500 uses better components than the HA01C (same manufacturer - different lines) either device should work as long as the space heater draws less current than the spec of the device(receptacle)you are using. You do not want to overload a normal receptacle(non z-wave) or a z-wave device.
I thought it would be obvious by now that the convenience of controlling this heater is just not worth the risk.
If a manufacturer INCLUDES a timer in its heaters design than it is perfectly safe because the manufacturer has designed and tested the equipment for that specific purpose and UL/CSA etc has APPROVED the equipment for that specific purpose.
However. If the heater is not originally intended to be operated by third-party control devices and you rig up your own devices to operate the equipment and there is a failure in YOUR design, you take full responsibility for what happens as a result. that includes burning your own house down, and any other houses that burn down with it.
Here is a layman example:
Candles. Candles are sold to provide pleasant smells, nice light, and a little heat in your home. If you rig up some sort of open flame lighter to ignite the candle wick unattended and there is a failure in the process, how far do you think a court case will go against the candle manufacturer? How will you feel if your super cool automatic candle flame lighter ends up burning a house down with someone in it?
Wow, we’re dropping to “layman” examples. Actually I forbid lit candles in my house because their potential hazard is way too high for me and they pollute the indoor air. Look, I’m actually quite pleased you are concerned about my safety, even to the roundabout point of calling me an idiot without actually calling me an idiot; but my question is not about the failure rate of third party controllers but the electrical tolerance of my HA01.
I started this thread BECAUSE I was concerned for my safety (hence the title) in using the HA01 since I did not understand the ratings. Since I have not received a sufficient answer, I will NOT be plugging a space heater, or any thing that comes close to the lower limit of the HA01. In fact I may just junk them to prevent anyone else from plugging a high-wattage item like a space heater in it.
Now if I buy something that is rated to handle the load, I feel comfortable with the risk because I would use the automation in a responsible way (e.g. as an all-off scene if I forget to shut it off and run out of the house). Or I would activate the heater in the basement 15 minutes prior to when I head down to do some work. I would NOT have it turn off and on as part of a timed or conditional scenes or use it as a permanent augmentation of my whole HVAC system.
When I get my basement refinished I would have a professional extend my current system if I wanted that. I too strive for reliability. That is why I chose an IP thermostat because at the time I did not feel z-wave thermostats were where I needed them to be.
I would also lesson the risk by buying a high-quality reputable brand oil-filled space heater and have a high-quality z-wave receptacle. Now that I know Leviton makes z-wave receptacles I would probably opt for that route as all most of my z-wave devices are Leviton and I respect the brand. I would not just assume any UL listed heater and all of its included features are safe, nor do I assume any z-wave module is safe.
I try to take safety pretty seriously. That is why I had new electric put in the house when we moved in to replace the knob and tube system from the previous owner (I also needed the neutral at the switch). I also have a surge suppressor on my main panel to reduce the chance of damage to my expensive and otherwise unprotected z-wave modules. My smoke detectors are on each floor and bedroom and are hard-wired with a battery back-up with a CO detector in the hallway outside all three bedrooms. They also tie in to my alarm system and call the alarm company when they go off.
So I appreciate your concern, but for you to just stop short of calling me a potential 3rd degree murderer is a bit much. So with that I’m going to discontinue my participation in the thread as I believe I got the answers I need and will proceed at my own risk.
I’ve stated that I’m electrician. I spent two years of my career working in a fire/flood emergency and restoration. I am also a registered FSR (Electrical Field Safety Representative) meaning I am certified to recognize, report and disconnect unsafe electrical installations and equipment as I see them. I’ve seen my fair share of homeowners claim ignorance in place of their incompetence.
I’ve been working with Vera since they offered it up for Beta testing at $150. I know first hand how unreliable it is. I’ve come home and lights that weren’t scheduled to be on, were on. This happens occasionally.
An oil filled heater lessens the risk for sure, but the risk isn’t eliminated. I’m not on this forum to ridicule you. I’m telling you straight up as an electrician (that spent two years cleaning up electrical fires) that you are creating a risk in your home.
When a receptacle is rated for 15A, it can handle any appliance that draws up to 15Amps of current. Therefore, if the HA01 is CSA/UL approved and is rated for 15Amps then your heater will be just fine plugged into it. You can plug a fan, a heater, a toaster, a light, a portable air conditioner etc. And just to protect homeowners from themselves, they design the prong configurations so a 20Amp plug cannot be plugged into a 15Amp receptacle. If the heater prong configuration fits into the receptacle, then it is perfectly safe.
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