Vera + DSC + Yale Real Living Questions

Other Devices & Integrations Door Locks & Sensors
1

So, I’m finally ready to get into home automation for my apartment and, after researching different options, I think using Vera would be the best way to do that. The forums here (and the plugins made by the community) are a major reason why I think Vera is currently the best choice. (Of course, with the reports I’m reading about the ui5, ui6 and ui7 growing pains and potential new hardware on the horizon, I’m not sure this is the right moment to be get a Vera, but that’s another question for another thread… :smiley: )

I’m starting from scratch so really I can build this anyway I want. Before I take the plunge, though, I wanted to make sure that some things I want to do are possible.

My plan is to get a DSC security system and a Yale Real Living touchpad lock. From what I understand, you can have really good integration between DSC and Vera. I’d get a DSC door sensor and some DSC motion detectors (among a bunch of other sensors, of course.) Because I can’t rewire my fixtures with Z-wave switches (only two wires in each, no neutral, no nothing), I was going to replace my bulbs with Philips Hue (and maybe the Z-Wave bulbs from Aeon Labs when they come out.)

Can I set things up with Vera so that when I enter my unlock code for my front door on the Yale, it will also disarm the alarm and (with the Hue plugin) turn on the lights in my hallway?

I’m leaning towards the DSC alarm system because I understand that it integrates better with Vera than the Elk M1 (and of course is less expensive.) It seems like some cool things I’d be giving up vs. the Elk, though, would be vocal alerts and the ability to control my alarm through my phone in the apartment. Are those things possible with the DSC? Am I wrong in thinking that the DSC alarm system is a better fit for Vera?

Can Vera use DSC motion sensors connected to the DSC alarm to trigger events, like turning on the lights in the living room when someone enters it? If so, would using DSC sensors cause that to happen slower than if I had dedicated Z-Wave sensors for that purpose? (Basically, I’m wondering if I can get away with just buying one set of motion sensors for both my alarm and for Vera home automation.)

One of the drawbacks people talk about with the Yale lock is that its auto-lock feature doesn’t know if the door is really closed before it re-locks. Can I disable the internal Yale auto-lock and then set up a scene where Vera 1) every five minutes, after the door is unlocked, checks to make sure that the DSC door sensor is reporting the door is closed and then 2) locks the lock again if the door is in fact closed then?

If anyone can help me with these questions, I’d greatly appreciate it. I’ve had a lot of fun lurking on this forum over the last week. Thank you to everyone here for making such a great community. :slight_smile:

2

Deal with the easy question first.

Yale enable or disable auto lock and duration (limited time) are user programmable.

With respect to the DSC and programming integration and the Yale scene,yes that is possible.

There is a current issue with the Yale locks (lockwood in Australia ) just make sure you get the upgraded to address the issue look on the net In Australia they will send out a locksmith to do the installation upgrade.

The purpose of integration between DCC and Vera allows by extension re-use of motion sensors just be aware that if you intend to use wireless motion sensors there is a six second delay between registering event and registering on the panel cascading through to your vera wired sensors do not have the delay. And nor do other door and window sensors.

Other alarm panels other the same integration and reuse of their sensor as well

3

Thank you for your reply, Brientim. That’s very helpful! :slight_smile:

Your mention of the “6 second delay” got me to read through this entire thread:

Topic: DSC Wireless Alarm System Integration to Vera - 2/2013
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,13773.0.html

(I had actually already read the last few pages of it, but there’s really a ton of relevant and even more useful information in the earlier pages, so I strongly recommend anyone thinking of integrating Vera with DSC start by reading the entire 13 page thread.)

It seems like a lot of folks recommend using the wired DSC motion sensors for HA, since they only have a 2 second delay and don’t have the 3 minutes reset period during “heavy traffic.” It also would be great to have just one set of motion sensors. But these will be used to trigger lights so they need to be super-fast. Even the 2 second delay from the wired DSC sensors might be too much… And I live in an apartment so the more wiring I set up, the more I will have to take down.

It’s something I’m definitely going to think about, I can see the advantages, but let’s say I want to stick with all wireless – are wireless Z-wave motion sensors instantaneous or is there still a delay? What is the best, most reliable and fastest Z-wave motion sensor?

(Also, I will admit, having a sensor that could also register how much light is in the room would be very helpful. Then the lights would only turn on if it were actually dark… So that might be another reason to consider Z-wave sensors in some places.)

I don’t really have doors in my apartment and pretty much none (except the front door) that I’d want to trigger lights. Besides motion sensors, is there something else I should be thinking about using to sense a human entering a room and triggering lights quickly? An electric eye? Sound detection? Psychics?

Thank you very much for your help! As many have said, it’s really the forum and the supportive community that makes Vera so attractive.

Alex

P.S. I live in the U.S. Do you have a link to that “issue” with the Yale lock? Or name for it? My Google-fu is coming up empty…

4

Once again, easy one first
They have a fix for the tumbler.
Google search “yale real living paperclip”

Yes, hardwired are fastest enough for triggering for HA and wireless are fine for security actions. However, WRT to doors, the wireless DSC are instant, so the integration is fine.

You only need to address the type of action desired and determine what is used for to assist your design… Even wireless motion are fine in a lot of cases.
Example use-case
Presence detection any sensor type to trigger a virtual or multi switch or set timer via Pleg or countdown timer.
User case - night light toilet - 6 seconds can seem like a long time. But may be offset by the other lights (e.g. light from bedside lamp)

The ZWave sensors are pretty much instance in most cases. Exception during heal or high volume actions. They are very good and improving all the time but not the same battery life as wireless alarm sensors. Search for z-wave alarm in the forum.

I have been lazy since moving last year and most sensor here are wireless dsc except for 3 z-wave to cover the areas I want instant trigger for night movement.

5

Ah, thank you. I had read about the paperclip lockpicking on the CNET review of the lock, but the CNET review folks said that it wasn’t as easy to do as the video made it seem and that this was just a standard vulnerability of pin and tumbler locks. But this is something Yale has gotten fixed? Do you know how I can tell if it has the upgrade?

A good solution might be a mixture of wireless DSC motion sensors and Z-wave (although, for my apartment, I’ll pretty much want the lights to be activated by motion sensors in every room…) I assume that the DSC won’t be able to recognize motion from the Z-wave sensors, but if I still wanted to use them for security, I could just tell Vera to trip the alarm herself through the plugin when they are activated while the alarm is armed?

Thank you for your help with this. :slight_smile:

Alex

6

As Brientim mentioned, you can disable the auto-lock feature.

However, you’re on the right track. If you have a vera with the fantastic PLEG plugin and DSC door sensor (or any door sensor), you can do one better. You can create a scene to lock the door automatically once Vera detects the door is closed, exactly as you have mentioned.

The PLEG plugin does take some getting used to, but its immensely useful once you get the hang of it.

Hardwired DSC motions are generally considered the best if you need something which responds quickly. Sadly, AFAIK, off the shelf zwave occupancy sensors don’t exist yet for some strange reason; you can hack one up if you like.

Most zwave motion sensors have reliability or responsiveness issues, but I’ve recently been turned on to the Schlage RS200HC and have been VERY impressed with the results. Just remember to configure the jumper to reset after 5 seconds rather than the optional 4 minute reset. I suggest picking one up to try and see if it fits your needs.

7

Thank you, silencery. It looks like I should just get the wired DSC versions. :slight_smile: Seems like the smart thing to do is to have pretty much all wired DSC motion sensors with maybe a couple Z-wave motion sensors that can detect light level so I can have info for Vera to act on. (I will take a look at the Schlage too.)

Thank you also for the advice re: PLEG. I’ve downloaded the beginner PLEG PDF and I’ll read through it. As someone who loves coming up with macros using Keyboard Maestro on my Mac, I think it’ll be right up my alley. (In fact, reading on another thread about PLEG, I got the idea of using one of the energy monitor Z-wave plugs to tell when my TV has been turned on to launch a TV Watching scene that would dim the lights and lower the blinds… Cool stuff.)

8

These seem to be the only points that nobody has addressed in your initial post.

Regarding vocal alerts, DSC does not support this, but if it is something that interests you, I would suggest you look into VoxCommando. It will give you more than just vocal alerts, it will also give you total voice control of Vera. It is $40 and has good reviews. This is something I have looked into and I will be adding to my system as soon as my build progresses.

As far as phone control, there is a DSC expansion card that will allow you this capability, called an Escort 5580. I would suggest a much more cost effective and more modern solution with a phone or tablet app that not only controls your DSC, but your entire system. Look at Authomation HD(free) for Andriod and HomeWave($5.99) for iOS.

9

The Escort5580 + 59xx audio matrix and an intercom station does provided voice alerts; however, I previously had this and after a short while it was turned off because it became very annoying…

Your best option is the EVL3 and using either a mobile or tablet. The mobile interface and the added solutions of the EVL3 are also worth a look.

It is a more current solution but the only benefit of the escort is it utilising PTSN over POT (plan old telephone system) is the fall back to old technology that works during power failures. I know everyone has battery backup on their alarms and UPS to support their critical communication but during power outages the POTS is still the most reliable.

10

I have no idea how I missed that. Its been a while since I looked at this module, and I ‘thought’ I looked thru the manual entirely, but I guess not. :stuck_out_tongue:

In the end, I opted to go the Vox Commando route, and use app based control instead, which is much more customizable to the individual user.

11

Unfortunately, at least here in the northeast US, this is becoming a thing of the past. We lost our copper telephone line due to Superstorm Sandy, Verizon was the provider. They said that if we want our landline back, they are no longer installing new copper lines and would convert us to fiber. Since everyone in my house has a cellphone, and we have voice service through the cable company triple-play, we said "no thanks’.

12

I was deploying fibre network in the field on exercises and operations over 15 years ago alongside both copper, microwave and mobile towers. Fibre was just so fast and reliable in comparison but at that point we retained a fall back solution of copper but reduced ranges with multiple retrans switching capabilities.

That is the way everywhere is going and here even cable (even DOCSIS 3 wasn’t good enough) was planned to be stripped and fibre to home was the only way they were heading… But recently, as a result of cost, both cable and copper to homes will be retained for the time being.

Still, back to the subject, I believe the other options provided now are very good solutions and the over the IP by the 3rd party providers and self monitoring solutions has broken the back of the control alarm monitoring companies previously held.

13

I can confirm that the combination is working well with:

DSC + EVL3 + Vera + Yale Living Door Lock. I have posted my challenges during my initial setup and how to overcome those in this forum. Just search for my posts on those subjects especially with the door locks.

No, you can NOT tell if the locks you received have the paperclip issue addressed until you open the box and look into the lock. I am attaching the instructions which will come with the hardware to secure those locks which you have to order over the phone and they will ship that to you for free. The instructions don’t say “confidential” so I assume it is ok to post that PDF here. You will see the part which is vulnerable via the paperclick on the top right and the new part on the bottom right.

Yes, you can monitor your DSC sensors with Vera but you should configure the interval rather large instead of seconds as you suggested in minutes and you need to disable the autolock feature at the lock pad or via Vera. You have more freedom via the Door plugin within Vera e.g. Autolock is always 1 minute while Vera allows you to specify up to 5 min before autolock kicks in but in your case you don’t want that.

You need to disable autolock and create a scene to lock the door and have a check if your DSC sensor states that the door is closed. Shouldn’t be that hard to accomplish.

I hope that feedback helps.

14

@Vodden: Thank you for that information. VoxCommando looks interesting and I’d be interested to hear how it works out for you. It seems like it’s Windows-only, though, and being a Mac guy, that’s not 100% convenient for me. (Not a total deal-breaker because I have an old, unused PC hanging around, but running that PC 24-7 for voice control would probably not be the most energy-efficient choice…)

I enjoyed reading the discussion re: POTS vs. IP. While I’m definitely going to get the EVL and take advantage of the mobile options, the robust reliability of copper wire does actually have an appeal to me. (It’s one of the reasons I haven’t gotten rid of my landline.) I’m not sure it’s enough to justify $100 for the Escort5580, but maybe…

@Brientim: I’m curious, what was annoying about it?

I have a phone extension in every room of my apartment. While I could see that being able to access my alarm and home automation while away via a regular phone line would have it’s uses, my main use would be to be able to just grab one of those phones to control DSC/Vera. I have my mobile with me a lot, but not all the time when I am home. I wonder if folks have set things up with their internal home phone lines to control Vera. IIRC, you could do that with HomeSeer and Way2Call…

@Pseudomizer: Thank you very much for that PDF about fixing the paperclip issue. That’s super helpful. (I read your post about setting up your lock (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,23692.msg162491.html#msg162491) and I’m sure that’ll be very helpful too.)

So, I can just call Yale, tell them I have the lock and they’ll send me the replacement part for free?

Also, forgive me, but I didn’t 100% understand this:

Yes, you can monitor your DSC sensors with Vera but you should configure the interval rather large instead of seconds as you suggested in minutes

I should configure the sensors with large intervals? I don’t understand. My plan was to (hopefully) have them activate lights immediately when someone entered the room.

Thank you to everyone for your help!

P.S. On the off-topic discussion, I would love to get fiber to the home, but living in San Francisco means that’ll likely never happen. Because, you know, fast Internet connections would be totally useless to folks living near Silicon Valley… ::slight_smile:

15

[quote=“abdiel2000, post:14, topic:180779”]@Pseudomizer: Thank you very much for that PDF about fixing the paperclip issue. That’s super helpful. (I read your post about setting up your lock (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,23692.msg162491.html#msg162491) and I’m sure that’ll be very helpful too.)

So, I can just call Yale, tell them I have the lock and they’ll send me the replacement part for free?[/quote]

Yes. Go on their website. They have special page just for that which will give you a phone number to call. Really easy.

[quote=“abdiel2000, post:14, topic:180779”]Also, forgive me, but I didn’t 100% understand this:

Yes, you can monitor your DSC sensors with Vera but you should configure the interval rather large instead of seconds as you suggested in minutes

I should configure the sensors with large intervals? I don’t understand. My plan was to (hopefully) have them activate lights immediately when someone entered the room.[/quote]

I am attaching a screenshot how your sensors will show up and you can check in real time any sensor on that dashboard once it is integrated using EVL3. When I open my window or my door it will take less than 1 second to change the status on the dashboard.

My point being is that you should not come up with a script or an agent monitoring your sensors every 1 second if it changed as this will hammer your Vera and not make it usable anymore. You want to say something like “If Door lock has status = unlocked then run scene name: lock door ONLY if sensor door status = closed”. This logic should not run every second.

Hope this explains it but if not, please ask.

16
My point being is that you should not come up with a script or an agent monitoring your sensors every 1 second if it changed as this will hammer your Vera and not make it usable anymore.

I think I understand. So… if I want Vera to use the DSC motion sensors to trip my lights, it needs to poll them at intervals? I can’t just set things up so that the moment I step into a room with DSC motion sensors, Vera is told automatically via some push mechanism?

If that’s so, that would be a big downside to using DSC motion sensors. That’s not the case with Z-Wave sensors, right? It seems like other Vera users are able to get their lights to turn on pretty much instantaneously with motion sensors…

I agree that polling a bunch of sensors every second would be pretty demanding… But setting it up to check even every minute, would mean a very long wait for the lights to turn on when I entered the room. Am I still misunderstanding what you mean? Do the scripts need to have logic that checks at intervals to make this work?

Thank you for letting me know about the Yale program. Found the link here:

http://www.yaleresidential.com/en/yale/yaleresidential-com/Upgrade-Kit/

17

If I were you I would post your logic question in the Advanced section under Programming and describe what you want to accomplish and the team can guide you on the options and provide a recommendation which way to go.

They will come back with things like PLEG, Scenes, Plugins, etc and then you can make a choice which route you want to go but there is no downside by using the DSC sensors and as a matter of fact i like your thinking as well because today it happens to me as well where the door gets locked while it is still open.

Worst case could be that you leave the house, you don’t close the door properly as you are in a hurry and the door locks after you are gone. You are now at work and you check online and the door says it is locked and unless you check your DSC sensors you will never know if the door is open or closed while it is locked.

Taking the reverse approach wouldn’t help either where you could say use Autolock but if the door is not closed unlock the door. Another big security risk where if the sensor malfunctions for the door status Vera could unlock the door while you are away.

Either way this is complex logic and has to be thought through properly. Today I use autolock with 1 min for my Kitchen door and 2 min for my front door and I am happy with it where the family ensures that the door is always closed especially as we have cats. So there is no need to worry about leaving a door not closed but I will investigate for myself or maybe I copy whatever you come up with :wink:

18

It was either on or off… Once on, it was and you have the names programmed and set the it to announce doors, it does that. It does that all the time. The other people I lived with worked is hospitality and worked very different hours to me. So at 3am being told doors opened was annoying, as it was for them me leaving at 6am.

The phones access and control did work very well and i also used to use the x10 component when I was travelling all the time. However, one point, if your using or need access an alarm all the time, something is not right. I had and still have HS Pro 3 but never use it and never used way2call.