Nightmare Setting Association for a Multi-Channel Device

Other Devices & Integrations Door Locks & Sensors
1

G’day guys

I’m having a hell of a time trying to get association working for a multi-channel device.

The source is an AEOTEC 6-in-1 multi-sensor, ZW100.

The destination I am setting association to is a Fibaro Dual-Switch 2, FGS-223.

On their own they work perfectly fine. If I then set the Aeotec to be associated with a Fibaro dimmer, it works a treat.

However, if I set the Aeotec to be associated with a particular channel of a Fibaro dual-switch it does not work. Vera shows I have set it, but does not show it applied.

To best demonstrate this, I have attached a screenshot where I have intentionally associated it with four things - two dimmers, and two dual-switches. You’ll notice only the two dimmers are actually associated, the dual-switches are not.

If I do not specify a multi-channel then it does set and the Fibaro does react by puling all its channels on and off, clearly indicating a problem. But specify one of the multi-channels and the setting won’t even apply to the Aeotec.

All devices are in secure inclusion. Have been abusing the hell out of my Vera but starting to think it is the Aeotec that is refusing to take the setting? Any ideas how to make this work?

2

So the flashing is simply an in-built ability to react to alarm conditions, which are obviously sent to the main unit and thus is fine.

So the problem remains why the sensor refuses to associate with .1?!

3

I doubt that you will get many replies as Associations is one of those Z-Wave buzz words that very few really use, mainly because very few manufacturers devices work with each other and if they do then the nodes you want to control are not available.
THe best bet for this to only use the same manufacturer, then you have their Support to deal with.

The reality is that you most probably will need to route through the controller to achieve your goal.

4

Ohhhhhh nooooo, don’t say that :frowning:

Firstly this whole “Z-Wave everything works with everything” slogan is proving to be the biggest load of crap. Devices not being supported at all, devices only partially supported, full support only what Vera choses, and even then if it works properly. Now even device to device isn’t reliable… OMG this is doing my head in, it’s like Z-Wave has only been out for 5 minutes and is still beta… not a finished product that is being falsely dumped on consumers :frowning:

Secondly this is for a short corridor. As is it’s already a couple of moments before the sensor trips, if it’s then up to Vera to pick up that change of state another few moments later (because again Z-Wave isn’t as instant as they claim) and then execute a scene and then turn on a light (which again isn’t as instant as they claim) then I’d have already finished walking down that corridor. Associating to a single-relay device (albeit wrong room) worked a treat, I simply needed to activate just a single relay of a dual relay.

I was keen on the Fibaro multisensors, but the advantage with the Aeotec was that it supports being externally powered (so not having to mess with batteries, regardless how long they might last) and acts as a repeater (which at ceiling level is absolutely brilliant).

Thanks so much for your reply though zedrally, at least it confirms my suspicion that (for the first time) a glitch I was having was (shock horror) not the Vera but the Aeotec device itself. I guess the solution might be that I’ll have to use an Aeotec dual-switch in place of that particular Fibaro dual-switch, but I’ve heard bad things about them and plus this was the first of many locations where I wanted to link sensors and lights.

Albeit I’ve been quite horrified to find, and then research and discover, these Z-Wave movement sensors are horrifically bad compared to the old fashioned PIRs we’ve used with security systems for 30+ years. A whopping 3ish metres range in a very limited angle of view… good grief I’ve got existing sensors that are seeing movement throughout entire rooms including a massive open plan living/kitchen space. I might have to integrate those sensors using my Z-UNO instead.

Also might have to do some reading through these forums to find out how you guys are all coping with all this, as I’m finding everything about this technology to be barely usable right from the start yet clearly you guys have all rolled out entire homes okay?

5

You can’t do the association to the child devices they aren’t the real device. I believe you have to do this via multiple end points of you only want to target one of the relays. Let me do a little digging to see what the right seeing is.

6

Correct. So in the case of one of the samples in my screenshot, the child relay I am trying to trigger is node 277. But what I am instead trying to trigger is the parent device (276) and the relevant endpoint (1), hence 276.1 - however the multisensor is not accepting this.

Yet you’ll see in the screenshot it accepted the two devices that were not multichannel - but the two multichannels I added are ignored.

I have tried directly editing the multisensor’s settings in case Vera’s UI7 was at fault - but the result is the same, the multisensor still doesn’t accept the multichannel ones.

Sincerely appreciate anything you can offer.

7

Ok, unfortunately the Aeotec doesn’t support multi channel (they don’t make any multi-channel devices so have no need to support it), you are going to need to go with the Fibaro sensor if you want to control the dual channel Fibaro switches with associations.

8

Are you sure - Aeotec make a dual-switch/relay just like Fibaro?

9

^^^
So do many other companies, it’s just that they all have different firmware running the device.
The only similarity is that they have a Z-Wave chip, double relay, PCB & Case.
Generally, the more you pay the more you get.
Some people want all the bell’s and whistles ( Associations & Parameters) while others just need a device that just switch’s and works simply ( Life Line Group & minimal Parameters) with a Home Automation Controller (like Vera or Homeseer) in between.

10

But how else would they do it if not multichannel? Two completely independent Z-Wave devices inside? But then wouldn’t you have to pair it twice?

Boy oh boy, everything about Z-Wave screams of fraud to me… nothing works with anything. Might as well have just bought a proprietary system, even my damn Z-UNO has limitations due to compatibility issues between different Z-Wave vendors. Crazy :frowning:

11

^^^
Fraud…no not really.

If you use Vera or HomeSeer in between devices then you can achieve the results you seek.
But you are correct, in order to ensure compatibility between devices you really need to one manufacturer’s devices and controllers.

Vera’s problem is that it tries to be everything for everybody, HomeSeer predates Z-Wave and was developed as a “Home Automation System” with added plugins for whatever system you decide on using.
IMO, both support 95% of the devices on the market.

12

But even Vera is a mixed bag.

Reading through this forum there are endless complaints about the Fibaro double-switches until Vera corrected this in December.

Reading through this forum there are endless complaints about Vera not properly supporting, or not at all support, endless devices.

And the problems with my Z-UNO are allegedly compatibility with Vera as well.

And that which Vera does support is after months, or in some cases it seems years, or people complaining. Yet it does seem to have the widest support - quite scary really.

So it seems another slogan for Z-wave could be “It’s everyone else’s fault” LOL :slight_smile:

So kinda wishing I went with the Fibaro home centre now, seems having everything the same brand would have been the better approach… even OTA firmwares would have been supported with that.

But only known in hindsight - until you delve into Z-wave and discover how big a mess it is, everyone sells you that everything works with everything. Couldn’t be further from the truth.

Only way I’m seeing to solve this is to create my own sensors with the Z-UNO, but then that means finding a solution to the Vera not supporting Z-UNOs multichannel for incoming properly. Talk about no win scenario.

Putting Vera inbetween would be useless… the delays it would introduce would render it pointless I reckon. But I will honestly give that a shot tonight, but based on my experience seeing the Vera’s reaction times I’m expecting further frustration. Unless it’s just the crappy UI7 response time that is clouding me.

Sorry for the venting, I’m just horrified that every step with these Z-Wave adventure has been the total polar opposite of what Z-Wave claims. I have spent so many nights stuffing around with things that should have simply worked :frowning:

13

Association is just a tricky thing. The Aeotec sensor does not support the command class Multi-Channel Association V2 or better, it only supports the Association v2 command class which doesn’t support multi-channel, so I have no idea how they intended you to use it with their multi nano switch, but with out the right command class support it will never do what you want.

The Fibaro Sensor does support the Multi-Channel Association command class so should work with Vera with your Fibaro dual switch/relay.

You don’t need the Fibaro hub, you just need a sensor that supports what you want. Direct Association works great when you can get it setup, but it can be very finicky/particular.

14

Sampling a bunch of different motion sensors on the z-wave alliance website (which lists what devices supports what command classes) looks like the Fibaro is essentially the only motion sensor on the market that supports multi-channel. Zipato, Everspring, Aeotec, Jasco, Homeseer, none of them support Multi-Channel.

Note however if your sensor is in close range to your Vera, the delay difference between direct association and a scene is likely less than a second. I only use scenes (PLEG actually) for my motion sensors because I don’t want them running in the middle of the night, and the reaction time works well enough. I do use direct association for switch to outlets, and switch to switch which I always want working.

15

Well WTF is going on here… :frowning: :frowning: :frowning:

I set up a scene to turn the light on and off instead. Worked fine a couple of times, then the lights starting acting weird. Really weird. Flicking on and then straight off, not coming back on, etc.

So I thought maybe I stuffed up the auto-off settings, even though they’ve been in place quite a while. Turned them off.

Now my Fibaro relays are reporting “Device failed to configure”. Furthermore the on/off status for the lights isn’t reporting accurately anymore. Turning them on and off via Vera isn’t accurately working anymore. Turning then on and off via the light switch does. Power cycling the relays made no difference. Power cycling the Vera made no difference. Deleting the scenes I created made no difference.

WTF… creating the scenes is all I did, now I’m having malfunctions galore. I am stumped, nothing is working right…

16

Alrighty how do I explain this.

So I have a setting on my Fibaro relays that basically turns them off after a certain amount of time. For the passageway this is quite short as I only need them on for a really short duration.

The trouble is, yes the Vera does react very quickly to detecting things - but its speed with setting things is abysmal. For example if I turn a light on manually Vera instantly knows this - but if I have Vera turn a light on it can sit there for quite a while, often retrying, sometimes a couple of times, and then succeeds. The dumb thing is that what it wants to do happens instantly (e.g. turn on a light) but it takes a long time to realise this worked - yet it gets the feedback instantly when I do it myself?

Anyways setting up a scene caused a total and utter meltdown. The scene was triggered, Vera tried to turn on the light (which it did but Vera didn’t know), she sat there for ages, she retried, she sat there, but then the relay auto turned off, and then Vera retried a second time… so the light went on, it went off, it went on… then of course the sensor also timed out and turned off. Seems simple, but when I walked down that passage several times the whole system ended up going into total and utter meltdown.

I’ve had to turn off the option in the Fibaros to auto turn off. This was painful as all the devices went into non-responsive state, even after I power cycled EVERYTHING… so after all the hell I’ve had with all this Z-Wave compatibility, with Vera, the whole thing, I was ready to take the thing into the street and belt it with a hammer. I’m really very frustrated with this whole thing… right from the start when the Vera bricked itself straight out the box. Anyways I instead walked away and put my daughters to bed. Came back half hour later and everything had finally configured and gone back to normal.

So I’v now re-set up the scene. The response time is shocking - well sometimes it is almost instant, sometimes there’s a huge delay, and likewise with turning it off - but it works. It’s unusable - passage is only a few metres so all this crap happens after you have already traversed the darkness, but it works.

Now I know what you’re thinking - you have reception problems causing these Z-wave comms issues. Negative - this particular relay is a whopping 3m from the Vera. Nothing in-between. The other relays are about 4m from the Vera, one wall between those. And don’t forget if I flip the light switch manually, over and over and over and over, the Vera INSTANTLY acknowledges this… every time. The problem is only when the Vera instructs this - the action occurs instantly but Vera struggles to get feedback.

Completely off topic, but hopefully someone might have an answer why that is. I have polling off, it seemed a waste of precious Z-Wave traffic when I strictly use Z-Wave Plus devices which are meant to provide instant feedback without polling, but maybe I need to turn that on… but then again to solve this issue it would need to be polling every few seconds which is a really really bad idea.

In any case this sensor is useless anyway as it only has a range of 3m and, more importantly, a shockingly poor angle of vision… so it doesn’t even see you until you’re almost under it. Compared to the 20+ year old security PIRs I have about the house which can see you from opposite end of the house, seriously. I think I’m going to have to give up on the MultiSensor and do it myself via the Z-UNO.

17

[quote=“shallowearth, post:14, topic:198695”]Sampling a bunch of different motion sensors on the z-wave alliance website (which lists what devices supports what command classes) looks like the Fibaro is essentially the only motion sensor on the market that supports multi-channel. Zipato, Everspring, Aeotec, Jasco, Homeseer, none of them support Multi-Channel.[/quote]Seriously mate thanks so much for going to so much effort researching that, it’s very interesting information. It really is a shame that Fibaro doesn’t support being powered externally

18

[quote=“Tillsy, post:16, topic:198695”]Alrighty how do I explain this.

So I have a setting on my Fibaro relays that basically turns them off after a certain amount of time. For the passageway this is quite short as I only need them on for a really short duration.

The trouble is, yes the Vera does react very quickly to detecting things - but its speed with setting things is abysmal. For example if I turn a light on manually Vera instantly knows this - but if I have Vera turn a light on it can sit there for quite a while, often retrying, sometimes a couple of times, and then succeeds. The dumb thing is that what it wants to do happens instantly (e.g. turn on a light) but it takes a long time to realise this worked - yet it gets the feedback instantly when I do it myself?[/quote]

Are you using Fibaro fgs 223? Because I filed a ticket with your exact behavior and the support told me it’s under investigation. So, it’s like a bug in their implementation. Technically speaking, the message is sent, but the zwave response is not recognized from the Vera, so they try again and 2-3 times later it succeed.

If you want maximum flexibility go for Fibaro universal sensor. I love mine. I have two mapped to my alarm panel and external sensors for mailbox and gate.

19

Yes, Fibaro FGS-223 - a lot of them. They all do the same thing:

  1. Turn them on or off via manual light switch - “instantly” changes status on Vera. Every time. Without fail.
  2. Turn them on or off via Vera - “instantly” happens, but Vera then sits there saying it is retrying… repeatedly. Generally within 10 seconds it will then acknowledge the lights are on or off, sometimes the Vera will assume it didn’t work and revert its status (so lights are ON but Vera says they are OFF), and other times Vera will send an inverse command to turn the light back off or on again (and whole process repeats).

So you appear to be dead right - the Vera DOES happily talk with the FGS-223 because it can instantly turn devices on and off, the FGS-223 happily talks to the Vera because the Vera instantly shows status changes if they happen at Fibaro end, but if the Vera turns something on it seems to not properly understand the response sent back from the Fibaro.

Am I able to contribute to your ticket to help re-enforce the problem, or should I log another ticket, or we just leave it because they may hopefully be already on it?

20

^^^
Never leave it.
IMO, The more tickets that are open on a particular device the better.