Me, Myself and Vera

Community Playground General Discussions
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I have my home running on PC+Homeseer for 5+ years controlling and monitoring, lights, motion sensors, door sensors, Oregon devices, ceiling fans, gates, doors, irrigation, swimming pool, spa, spa heater, decoration lighting, etc. I have 100+ X10, Insteon and 433Mhz devices. The system is running reliably as I have X10 filters and repeaters.

I don’t like PC, Windows, Visual Basic, Homeseer user interface and X10 and decided to slowly move to Zwave.

PC: too much power, big, mechanical harddrive (Yes, I can replace it with an Atom, fanless PC but then I have to buy another homeseer software)

Windows: Too complicated and large for home control, power and memory hungry, mandatory updates which reboots the system, costs $60+

Visual Basic: Not a flexible/modern language

X10: Not reliable over all, you always need to be careful on what you are connecting to your power lines

Homeseer: Not many plugins for new systems, costly plugins, limited mobile device support, old GUI

So, I moved to Vera and here is my feedback

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I am providing these feebacks based on my experience with Homeseer+PC.

The bad:

1- Vera response time for a specific device is not deterministic. The response time varies from instant to 30 seconds. This is very unpleasant, especially if you trying to run some kind of automation.

2- Vera does not have a log for device operations i.e. operation log. That log should contain the state change of a device plus time stamp. By looking at that log you can tell what system has done during a period of time

3- LuaPnp.log rotates too fast to be useful for diagnostics, even if you have a huge USB drive. Note that this log file is not a replacement for what I call operation log (2)

4- Scene Luup files cannot be longer than one minute. The remedy in Vara is to weave your code through calls to call_delay(), which makes the code complicated, hard to write and maintain. If Vera is really into event programming it should provide good support and mechanism for it. In Homeseer a scene can be programmed much easier (although using VB)

5- Luup documentation either incomplete or non-existence. Thanks to the people on the forum or you would be totally stuck.

6- Vera technical support does not exist. They provide you with wrong information, and you have to find the right answer on the forum, and it takes them more than week to reply back and sometimes they never get back to you. Overall: Please Vera, stop your technical support.

7- Vera restarts frequently. My Homeseer system never restarts , unless I shutdown the computer. Restart for a control system means you cannot rely on scenes to be executed correctly. This is really bad if you controlling, pool, irrigation, fans etc.

8- Luup needs a restart after slightest change on the system like renaming the device, which makes it time consuming to configure your device and adds to the problem (7)

9- UI5 takes lots of space, without providing much info about the system. I think the system designers have mixed up the “administrative UI” with “user UI”. Vera must have both. An administrative UI, is where you can configure, monitor and manage devices and you have a concise and complete view of the system. A user UI is where you just control your devices; something similar to Vera’s mobile applications.

10- Vera needs to specify more attributes for a device. In addition to the room, each device/scene needs to have a place to enter comments, device type, installation date etc. This makes management easier.

11- Vera needs to continue performing call_delay() functions in case of reboot/restart. You cannot develop scenes or SW of your working Vera. Because you need to restart Vera, and Vera looses all its call_delay() schedule . Additionally, in case of power rest, or Vera mandated restart, all scheduled call_delay()'s are lost.

12- Vera has freezed many times during the time I have been using it, and needed a power cycle. My PC+Homeseer has been working non-stop for the past few years, without a problem. (I don’t let my PC to connect to internet)

3

The Good:

1- Vera hardware/OS is light and low power. It is kind of system that can run non-stop for years, if you have the right software

2- I like Lua. It is a simple and flexible language and its footprint is not large either.

3- There are very useful plugins for Vera and Vera can be interfaced to variety of systems such as Alarms, 433Mhz devices, Arduino DIY system, etc

4- There are good mobile Apps for Vera

5- There are active plugin development for Vera and helpful people on the Forum

6- *Its ZWave interface is reliable compared with Aeon ZWave USB stick on PC+Homeseer

*make sure you use new Zwave devices that use the recent zwave chip. They work better with Vera. Old Zwave devices such as Intermatic CA9000, Intermatic CA5100 and Intermatic CA3500 although work with Vera, but they cannot be controlled reliably and may slowdown the network. This is based on my personal experience with these devices (5/6/2014).

4

Thanks for sharing your experience and opinions. You present several valid criticisms that we can only hope will be improved upon.

I think you forgot a couple of features from your “Good” list.

None the less, your “Bad” list is far longer than your “Good”. My question is, will you stay with Vera or move back to Homeseer? If you’ve chosen to stay, I think that logic dictates editing your “Good” list.

5

a few more for The Bad

Scenes that you have had for years just disappear from Vera one day.

Occasionally, Vera looses the Z-Wave port path which pretty much disables everything including serial communication through Vera.

I am more curious about comparing the Homeseer Hometroller Zee with Vera since it is a comparable gateway.

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[quote=“shady, post:5, topic:178399”]a few more for The Bad

Scenes that you have had for years just disappear from Vera one day.

Occasionally, Vera looses the Z-Wave port path which pretty much disables everything including serial communication through Vera…[/quote]

Never had either of these happen apart from losing the zwave port after migrating from a V2, but that doesnt count really.

7

I have just decided to test out Vera3. I have used Homeseer for many years and I use it for automation of my hone with respect to alarms, light control, heating control, blinds control, lock control etc.

All my devices are z-wave European type.

I do not share the view expresed here about stability of Homeseer. I feel like I have been part of a constant beta tester team for the last three years. For me HS has the following problems

[ol][li]Losing nodes regulary so the system needs hands on EVERY day[/li]
[li]Significant problems with batery operated devices. Some sensors stop working regulary and must be put into programing mode to start working again[/li]
[li]Phantom nodes that emerge and can not be deleted. Solution to delete entire network and then rebuild it[/li]
[li]Support for mobile devices is not very good[/li][/ol]

I do agree with the other points mentioned about Homeseer. I have not tested the new version. It is still in beta and it is rather expensive to join the beta testers :wink:

I have just had the Vera for three days and I must say that I am a little dissapointed and so particulary with the lack of advanced possibilities to define triggers and events . I have also learned that some of my devices is difficult to include (Mertens battery operated buttons). It is still early days and would like to follow and contribute to this thread.

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[quote=“elo, post:7, topic:178399”]All my devices are z-wave European type.

I do not share the view expresed here about stability of Homeseer. I feel like I have been part of a constant beta tester team for the last three years. For me HS has the following problems[/quote]

Homeseer support for for ZWave is not the best. I have tried Aeon Zwave USB stick and it is broken IMO. Vera Zwave implementation is stable, although response time is non-deterministic.

[quote=“elo, post:7, topic:178399”]I do agree with the other points mentioned about Homeseer. I have not tested the new version. It is still in beta and it is rather expensive to join the beta testers :wink:

I have just had the Vera for three days and I must say that I am a little dissapointed and so particulary with the lack of advanced possibilities to define triggers and events . I have also learned that some of my devices is difficult to include (Mertens battery operated buttons). It is still early days and would like to follow and contribute to this thread.[/quote]

Vera has three major problems in my opinion
1- Frequent/mandated restarts
2- Limited scene programming and options
3- non-deterministic response time

9

I don’t want to turn your opinion piece into a troubleshooting thread or appear to be making excuses for Vera. However, this issue is almost always due to Z-Wave signal quality and routing. My experience has shown that by improving the signal coverage or, in rare cases, restricting the routing results in reliable and immediate responses. I did a good diagram(a rarity for me) that explained this well some time ago, but I can’t find it now.

Edit: Here’s my post on the possible cause of slow nodes due to bad route selection issues.

10

I guess this is not about HS but for completeness: I found that using the AEON stick was troublesome until I did understand that the power management of USB ports in Windows MUST be turned off. When understanding that, the stability improved but the issue of nodes dissapearing was not completely resolved

I think Z-Waver touch the most important issue and that is to have a Z-Wave network that is optimized and actually functions well:

I wonder if you guys can help me with the following:

[ol][li]Before I start building a complete new Z-wave network (which implies destroying the one I have now) I would like to ask Z-Waver for links and directions on how to control the network and to understand how this work in VERA? For HS the options available is very limited. My specific problems with loosing nodes was partly solved or rather limited in terms of a problem by doing a full optimization every night !![/li]
[li]How do you cope with the limitations of scene-programming and especially triggers. I have found one APP: The Program Logic Event Generator that can combine several single events into one. Is there further opportunities in the form of APPS o do I have to write my own code?[/li][/ol]

Thank you for your kind help and have a continued nice Christmas time!

Post Note: I did find this device with Aeotec; a range extender/repeater just to plug into a wall outlet http://aeotec.com/z-wave-repeater

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Before I start building a complete new Z-wave network (which implies destroying the one I have now) I

You do not have to delete the existing network. You just need to add additional nodes to the network … Then do a Heal.
Also you can also add an external antennae (voids the warranty) to increase the Z-Wave Radio signal strength.

12

Adding on to what @RichardTSchaefer said… (P.S. He wrote PLEG and others, but he’s pretty modest about it.)

  1. There’s no easy answer to this question. Like Richard said, you add nodes to increase coverage. It’s a trial and error process. Your Aeon repeater is a possible method of extending the network as well as being able to move it around to find the best location for an intermediate node.

Vera will do a heal every day at 2:00 if there are any bad routes or unreachable devices. You can also run a manual heal at any time and then view the report showing signal strength.

You should always perform a heal or allow a heal to occur when you move Z-Wave devices. This updates the routing information. Moved devices may not function correctly or at all until a heal is performed.

If you search the forum you will find information on manual routing. Manual routes, in my opinion, are a last resort and I would recommend against them unless you have a very specific need and a good understanding of what you are doing. Add intermediate nodes to improve your network.

  1. PLEG removes all restrictions. Without PLEG you must use LUUP/LUA code.
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when I talk about non-deterministic response time, I am talking about response time for a specific device.

Example 1: I have light that is programmed to turn on after the PIN code is entered on my Schlage door lock. The light sometimes turns on immediately, sometimes after few seconds and sometimes 15 seconds.

Example 2: I have a motion sensor that sends a notification to Vera whenever a motion is detected and Vera turns the light on. Again, from the time that the motion is sensed to the time that the light turns on varies between one seconds to 10 second.

14

[quote=“RichardTSchaefer, post:11, topic:178399”]

Before I start building a complete new Z-wave network (which implies destroying the one I have now) I

You do not have to delete the existing network. You just need to add additional nodes to the network … Then do a Heal.
Also you can also add an external antennae (voids the warranty) to increase the Z-Wave Radio signal strength.[/quote]

I am afraid I do not understand this. Perhaps I am unclear on my current set up. I currently have a HS2Pro based system. The network interface is a AEON USB Stick V2. I want to build a new system around Vera3. I have purchased Vera3 and I have tested some of the basic functionality to make myself familiar with the VERA3 basics.

I NOW want to remove the nodes in the network from the HS implementation. I thought it would be best to completely reset every node and build the network all over.

DO YOU SUGGEST to add the nodes as they are now to VERA3 and then use the heal (is this at all possible given the Z-wave protocol)? I would be very thankful if you could explain a little further. I would really like to have a GOOD network topology before I start putting more basic work into the automation issues.

Z-Waver: Thank you for your suggestions. Is there really no general advice in how to set up the network. For instance to start with nodes close to the controler and build outwards. Or the location of the controller etc. etc. (I do find it difficult to find comprehensive documentation on the subject both in the VERA WIKIs and the forum)?

Thanks for the info on PLEG. I will study the docs on PLEG before starting implementing my scenes and triggers.

15

[quote=“persimmonx, post:13, topic:178399”]when I talk about non-deterministic response time, I am talking about response time for a specific device.

Example 1: I have light that is programmed to turn on after the PIN code is entered on my Schlage door lock. The light sometimes turns on immediately, sometimes after few seconds and sometimes 15 seconds.

Example 2: I have a motion sensor that sends a notification to Vera whenever a motion is detected and Vera turns the light on. Again, from the time that the motion is sensed to the time that the light turns on varies between one seconds to 10 second.[/quote]

First. It is not my intention to hijack your post! Please let me know if you would like me to move these questions to a new post. I thought it made some sense to add to your post?

I will monitor this as I agree that it is not acceptable with delays as long as those you speak about. If you decide to work with the z-wave topology and routing I would be very interested in hearing about your experiences with that.

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@persimmonx - I understand your meaning of non-deterministic times. There can be other causes like an overloaded Vera, but the most common cause is signal/route quality and it is resolved by adding intermediate nodes or adjusting routes.

@elo - This is veering off topic for this thread. I’m sorry that I cannot point you to a specific how-to as far as network setup. Obviously read the manual, but it is not always a straightforward process. The issue is radio frequency signal quality(not really specific to Vera or even Z-Wave). Signal quality is affected by transmit power, receive gain, environmental interference, environmental permeability, environmental reflectivity… The environmental factors vary in every location even from room to room. There is no hard rule on how to do it.

Starting form close to Vera and working out is a great idea. Also, assume that a device’s range will only be half or less of the advertised maximum. If a device has poor signal quality, add nodes.

You can see in the exaggerated diagram below that NodeA is isolated from the network until the Intermediate NodeE is added. But, thanks to NodeE, NodeC is now able to reach NodeA.

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@Z-Waver

I know you have worked on zwave signal strength but I performed series of tests and I believe even with the strongest zwave signal for a specific node, still Vera response time is not deterministic.

I know that nodes shows signs of being unresponsive and behaving randomly, when their signal is not strong to reach Vera. In this case, adding nodes, specially nodes that are using the latest chipset, solves the problem. Yet, Vera response time for a specific node varies a lot. I think this is due to Vera not having a real-time software. I think even having a more powerful hardware won’t solve the problem.

Thanks!

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The Z-Wave protocol is all handled by a hardware chip/Daughter board.
Vera Interfaces with the Hardware chip. It’s role is to configure the Z-Wave hardware and to make requests and process events.
I have not seen any indication that the Linux/LuaUPnP setup will have any problems in a typical home.
It may have a problem if the typical load is MANY devices initiating events at the same time.

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[quote=“RichardTSchaefer, post:18, topic:178399”]The Z-Wave protocol is all handled by a hardware chip/Daughter board.
Vera Interfaces with the Hardware chip. It’s role is to configure the Z-Wave hardware and to make requests and process events.
I have not seen any indication that the Linux/LuaUPnP setup will have any problems in a typical home.
It may have a problem if the typical load is MANY devices initiating events at the same time.[/quote]

It depends on the definition of “problem”. I think it is indeed a problem if you switch a light using GUI and then waiting for unspecified amount of time for the action to happen. In my opinion any action started from GUI, should complete with in less than one to two seconds. Additionally, the response time should not vary a lot.

I have receptacle which is few feet from Vera. It takes Vera one to 5 seconds to turn that receptacle on or off.
I have scene, which turns lights on, when the zwave door lock is unlocked. It takes Vera 3-10 seconds to turn the lights on
I have zwave motion sensor that triggers a scene to turn a light on. Again, the response time is between 2 to 5 seconds.

These are all consistent examples that Vera software is not working well.

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[quote=“persimmonx, post:19, topic:178399”][quote=“RichardTSchaefer, post:18, topic:178399”]The Z-Wave protocol is all handled by a hardware chip/Daughter board.
Vera Interfaces with the Hardware chip. It’s role is to configure the Z-Wave hardware and to make requests and process events.
I have not seen any indication that the Linux/LuaUPnP setup will have any problems in a typical home.
It may have a problem if the typical load is MANY devices initiating events at the same time.[/quote]

It depends on the definition of “problem”. I think it is indeed a problem if you switch a light using GUI and then waiting for unspecified amount of time for the action to happen. In my opinion any action started from GUI, should complete with in less than one to two seconds. Additionally, the response time should not vary a lot.

I have receptacle which is few feet from Vera. It takes Vera one to 5 seconds to turn that receptacle on or off.
I have scene, which turns lights on, when the zwave door lock is unlocked. It takes Vera 3-10 seconds to turn the lights on
I have zwave motion sensor that triggers a scene to turn a light on. Again, the response time is between 2 to 5 seconds.

These are all consistent examples that Vera software is not working well.[/quote]

Not true. I have owned Vera for several years now and been through every version of the firmware. Most of those delays can attribute to routing issues, distance issues or interference. Performing several heals should improve this. The more zwave devices you have the better the network should get. It is rare for me to experience a delay that you mentioned especially when calling the action directly by Vera. I have 50+ z-wave devices in my home not including the non z-wave devices and all of my requests to operate those devices are near instant. The only time I experience a slow response is if my Vera is performing a task that is causing some sort of load and requests are delayed.

  • Garrett