I am working on a quote for a customer now who is building this major house. He wants EVERYTHING to be z waved! The largest job I’ve done is a 28 switch and the Vera3 handles it well, but here are some “gotchya’s” I see in this project.
This is the base quote:
2 VERA3 - MicasaVerde VERA3 Web Enabled
31 VRCS4-M0Z - Leviton Vizia RF+ ZWave 4
54 GE Z-Wave Wireless Lighting Control Dimmer Switch
68 GE Z-Wave Wireless Lighting Control On/Off Switch
There are locks and a couple appliance modules as well, but my big concern is the scene controllers.
Customer wants to mount all “switches” in a closet or some other place to be out of the way.
Customer wants to use Scene controllers to control the lights.
Customer wants touch screens in major area’s of house to control lights.
Customer wants all Scene Controllers to be hard wired (no batteries.)
I recall banging my head into the desk trying to get a VRCS4-M0Z - Leviton Vizia RF+ ZWave 4 Button Scene Controller to work and it just wouldn’t.
I have never used a touch screen before. No idea what complications there would be.
I suspect I would need two vera3’s
Is this project doomed to fail because of issues with the scene controllers and Vera?
Also there is mumblings about including a home audio system, remote TV’s etc. Should the customer be considering an HAI, control4 system instead?
I don’t consider Vera to be industrial strength enough for anyone but the “enthusiast” market (IE: geeks who like to play with techy stuff with not a lot of cash).
I suggest Control4 or one of the other main-stream guys - big $$$ but if they are investing that much in HA you should do it right and not get frustrated.
Also, I’d consider Leviton gear for the switches/dimmers, because they are scene capable (and able to report back a status change instantly). Though, if it’s LED lighting, you may not get good results with the VRI06 dimmers (as they have no neutral (because they are meant for incandescent)).
And I’d go with zone controllers over scene controllers, because of separate on/off.
Are all dimmers/switches really going to be in unconventional locations (i.e. you can never install ‘normal’ dimmers/switches in the future)?
Sounds crazy but those are the best. I always ask customers “how crazy do you want to go” then surprise them with something they never thought of. Suggest drive way, perimeter, energy monitoring, etc.
Do they want all switches in 1 closet? 122 switches in a 3x3 enclosure? Switches produce some heat, don’t know how it would add up. Regardless that is insane. First how would all of the romex fit? Evey light in the house would have to be a homerun. You would need to build the closet out of 2x10s. Also I can’t imagine any electrical inspector allowing that.
If anything convince them to go with a “zoned” approach where 1 closet houses the switches for 3-4 rooms. Maybe 10 switches per “closet” which is doable, might need to build out some false walls with (non metallic) access panels or strategically placed pictures. Add a safe to the closet in the master bedroom.
Do you know the electrician? Make friends with him, you will. Convince the homeowner to have the electrician loop the romex to where a switch would traditionally go back to the closet so the home can easily be converted back to “normal”. At least loop it to where the scene controllers are going. Unless he plans on dying in the house or doesn’t care about resell value, he will regret it. He can’t assume every buyer will share his enthusiasm. Many buyers will be turned off because they just see having to guy the home and pour a ton of money into it just to make it “normal”. Then make sure the electrician know that you got him the extra work.
Touchscreens - go with ipads or cheaper android tablets with removable charging wall docks. If you go with control4 or something similar they’ll have a good app and the customer gets the added bonus of internet, weather, apps, video calls via skype (including inside the home) etc in every room. Since they are removable they become universal remotes as well. Convince the homeowner to rack all the av equipment in one of the 12 closets and distribute ir/hdmi and audio to in ceiling speakers. You can get audio out of the tv and through the speakers so every room with a tv has pseudo surround sound.
Why zwave? I know this is counter to vera but it may not make sense for this install. If all of the devices will be grouped together you may have a weak signal for locks or plugin modules. I’m sure he will want to add a lamp somewhere after he moves in and the nucleus may be too far away. You could resolve this by installing zwave outlets throughout but not ideal. Also I’m curious how all of the copper wiring would affect zwave communication outside the closet. Might be a massive faraday cage. If you are going with a non-vera controller maybe look into upb. Electrician will get some additional work from you to bridge the phases as well. Install ted5000 while you are at it.
Good luck. Report back when you get more info. Sounds fun.
Hi Shorty, I like your style! In some ways, I want to take this on, it sounds like it would be a blast - 3 2 1 ON! But it could become such a call back nightmare if not done right.
Yeah, we did get to a point where they thought it made sense to put just the “area” switches in the closet. In this example, there are 4 bedrooms up, each bedroom has 4 lighting scenes and the bathroom has 2 light scenes and a fan so a total of 7 switches.
What I would really like to do is make contact with the owner and say, look put the switches where they should go. The builder may have told the guy that (using the C4 model) you don’t need switches or something etc. That would solve many issues plus allow the house to go back to normal haha. This house is being built to flip. It is a 6+ million dollar place (even has an elevator!)
I so want to avoid anything leviton and scene/zone controller related! I DO want to go the tablet route. The app that runs vera is perfect and can do all that I would need it to do.
Yes, I propose a “hybrid” type system where vera does lighting/locks and a C4 does home audio and the TVs. There is some waffling going on whether we should take the project on or not.
I think the owner may have asked about z-wave. I basically got a call from a co-worker, Jim, go here, talk to this guy and figure something out uhhh ok…
Definitely take it on. Sounds like money is to be made but be direct from the beginning that this is an atypical install.
I FULLY appreciate the fear of callbacks. Considering that, it is probably best to go with a controller that has dedicated support. Vera tech support and this forum is good for solving bugs but perhaps not the best for this install. It is in your best interested to have a hotline to a dedicated support team who are working with you on the project. You need people on salary who’s job is to support installers.
[ul][li]With just scene controllers in the rooms, you’d have no physical control over the individual lights that make up the scene.[/li]
[li]You can dim/brighten the last active scene, but which is the last active scene?[/li]
[li]If you change the state/level of a light in the scene, the scene becomes inactive. Turning all the lights in the scene off, means first activating the scene, then deactivating it.[/li]
[li]Dimming with GE’s does not work out-of-the-box. You can make it work; but Vera wouldn’t be in sync (instantly).[/li][/ul]
Hi oTi@, Yes, agreed that is why we’d really like to have them put the switches in a “normal” location.
From what I know with scene controllers and granted it is not much, I DO know they are a hassle, big time, I’d like to avoid them at all cost!
Programming scenes isn’t too much of a problem, and I’ve had to do some fancy check if on etc stuff so I should be able to work around those subtle annoyances.
So far, I haven’t had any issues with ge’s dimming “out of the box.” Not quite sure what you mean here.
Thanks for the feedback!
@Shorty I don’t have the final say if we do it or not. If we need to leave Vera, I think for me, i’d prefer not to take on the project. I do wholly agree with you about a company that has strong support, but Vera (for me anyhow) has met the needs of our previous clients and thankfully has had virtually no call backs. Only problem we’ve run into is the odd popped switch.
I have never called vera tech sup, always found the right answer right here
Yep, just wanted to call some of it out, for others reading this. It’s great to be able to push a button and have a bunch of lights come on simultaneously; but there often still is a need for individual control, and people like physical controls.
The third bullet is why I recommend zone over scene controllers.
If you’re not looking to use scene/zone controllers at all, then how do the users kick off (Vera) scenes? I was assuming a mix of scene/zone controllers and dimmers/switches, in conventional locations.
The GE remark is about your original proposal of using scene controllers with GE dimmers/switches. Using the dimming controls on the scene controller does not work with the GE’s, out-of-the-box. (I.e. if the dimmers themselves were sitting in a closet, then you’d have no physical dimming control in the rooms.)
I appreciate that, this could be a big project all idea’s/gotchya’s that can be predicted before anything happens always helps!
Yeah, I get the feeling that the home owner doesn’t know what a z wave switch looks like, can’t help but think to just “give him one.”
As Shorty mentioned, a tablet solution would be ideal. I have had zip for luck with controllers, remotes, and anything else that seems to be labeled “scene controller.” I should say that I have gotten them to sort of work, but nothing that I would want to install.
Ah ha! Yeah, I really gotta show the HO what the switch actually looks like haha.
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