Leviton Scene control - strange

Plugins & Plugin Development Unmaintained
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[quote=“jsed, post:12, topic:170832”]One thing to remember- if the Leviton scene controllers are controlling anything other than Leviton devices in one scene (mixed manufacturers- not sure about Cooper Aspire), the scene buttons must be set to ON/OFF only. For whatever reason- perhaps b/c of the Leviton patent on 2 way communication, scene dimming will cause the operation (button programming) to fail.
For example:
If you assign three Leviton devices to a Lev Scene Controller Button #1, you can dim or on/off. If you assign 2 Evolve controllers to Button #2 you will need to be sure its On/OFF.[/quote]

Among other issues on general reliability, and recently losing local load control (I’ve found multiple threads on each), i’m also having what i think you are describing here - as a problem in one of my scenes.

one button on my controller is set to turn on all the lights in my kitchen, via a scene i created. One light is the local load, one is a GE switch, and the last is a Leviton Dimmer Switch.

The scene executes perfectly from MiOS, but if i try to invoke it with the controller, only the local load and the GE switch will turn on…NOT the Leviton Dimmer. Ironically, if i have them all on (activated from MiOS, then when i toggle the switch, they DO all turn off).

I’m not sure by what you mean to setup the button on the controller “you will need to be sure its On/OFF” if it’s a mixed environment? can you help?

thanks.

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What @jsed is reporting, may be specific to the example mentioned (with Evolve devices, as they are Z-Wave scene capable, but not instant-status capable).

Regardless, IIUC, you cannot control your Leviton dimmer, from a Leviton controller / and the same scene also controls the local load and a GE.

Perhaps the signal path from the controller to the dimmer is not good.
Does it work when you create a separate scene for another button, with just the dimmer in it?
And what level are you setting the dimmer to in your scene?

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When I referred to setting the scene buttons to On/Off I was referring to Lev 4 button scene or zone controllers not communicating scene parameters properly to non-Leviton devices when there is any sort of “dim” command in the scene. That includes the ramp up/down that appears to be the default action for most electronic dimmer switches- ie if the switch has dimming capabilities it doesn’t simply turn on or off like a non-dimming switch might.

I don’t remember if there is a parameter that can be tweaked when setting commands for the controller buttons within Vera- but for some reason, changing the behavior of dimmer switches to 100% on, and 100% off with no ramping has fixed many Lev controller scene problems for me in the past. The scenes, as you note, work well when controlled by Vera, but not so well when you press the controller button on the switch itself. When I ran into this problem in the past, I set the button parameters using a Leviton controller (to ON/OFF for the different scene buttons vs dim/ramp), then included the controller into the Vera network and set the Lev controller parameters within Vera to “do not configure”.

I’m not sure if this is necessary anymore, or if newer generation Lev controllers no longer have this issue. Some of my controllers are basically 1st gen- and have non upgradeable firmware on the hardware itself. They do not work all that well when programmed by Vera in multi-manufacturer device arrays. I’m sad to say that in some instances where I really wanted a solid two way control I switched to Insteon and gave up on z-wave devices altogether. For example I have 3 Insteon controlled lights in a hall that all communicate perfectly and behave as you would expect a wired 3 way to - but I could never get them to operate with zwave as one light is a hard wired relay (Evolve) that just wouldn’t play nice with the other devices and the switches were always out of sync.

Anyone want some 4 button zone or scene controllers? :smiley:

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[quote=“jsed, post:23, topic:170832”]Anyone want some 4 button zone or scene controllers? :-D[/quote]I have some too, and switches. We can make someone a nice package deal!

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I might add mine to the deal! :-).

OK… Did you guys totally give up on Leviton then? Are you using Insteon, or have you come up with some other great wall mounted scene controller i haven’t seen yet? I’m not technical enough for Altsteon, and it looks like some have made the move from that to ISY… so that means yet another controller.

I really only need about 3 wall mounted scene controllers to do what i want… and I’d like them all to have local load control. If i was starting from scratch on that, what would you recommend, considering the wife factor :-).

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Leviton, in my opinion, is great in a pure Leviton environment. Start mixing things, and you either have to go through Vera (a delay) or go with On/Off only, no dimming. Not perfect.

I wasn’t planning to jump to Insteon, but I guess I fell in love. :slight_smile:
I initially went Altsteon, and helped out with that, but then I got a deal on the ISY controller, and then I really went down the rabbit hole!

Previously, my house had been a mishmash of Z-Wave devices, starting with GE, then changing the main areas to Leviton, and then converting some of those to Insteon. My downstairs is completely Insteon now, as is my master suite, and all ceiling fans, but the rest of the house is mostly still Z-Wave. The ISY supports Z-Wave natively now (in beta), so that helps out.

Insteon is definitely not perfect, but being mostly 1 manufacturer, with a cheaper price point than Leviton, essentially guarantees* compatibility.

I still support Vera and Z-Wave, I was just outgrowing what I could do with it, and the cost was going up when I wanted switches for Instant Status, etc. Plus, I just love to tinker with things, and always looking to make things better/try something new/etc.

*Note: As mentioned, Insteon isn’t perfect, and some device versions definitely have issues. I have been lucky, and my newer items haven’t had any problems.

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So let’s say that everything zwave is working pretty well for me… and i think it can in the future based on my needs. I have my alarm panel hooked up (AD2USB), a couple of Schlage locks working, and a large amount of lamp modules and wall switches (mostly all GE/JASCO).

I just need 3 good controllers with local load :-). Would you recommend going to Insteon for those (keypad), and trying to use built in support? … or ISY plugin- which is probably about even on cost if you think about Leviton switches vs. insteon (assuming i can sell the Leviton’s back).

here’s a question i haven’t been able to find an easy answer for. In an environment where i’m using Insteon KeyPads… can they control Zwave lamp modules and switches, or would i need to swap those out as well?

I already have a PLM, so if i thought there was a “fairly easy” and robust way to change my wall scene controllers over to Insteon, and keep the investment I’ve already made in the zwave stuff, i’d do it in a heart beat. I’m worried that just 3 controllers is not enough to create the mesh network needed.

if your were me… and i promise i won’t hold you to this… what would you do? :slight_smile:

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[quote=“tomgru, post:27, topic:170832”]if your were me… and i promise i won’t hold you to this… what would you do? :-)[/quote]That’s a mighty big if! 8)

  1. I don’t think built-in Insteon support will support the KPLs, except for the switch part. They might, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
  2. Z-Wave items can be controlled from Insteon KPLs, via Vera/Altsteon. The KPL sends a command to the PLM, which tells Altsteon, which tells Vera, which tells the Z-Wave device to react.

The one thing I hate is lack of immediate response. That’s my biggest gripe. In Insteon, almost any switch/KPL button/device can control any other Insteon device. In Z-Wave, certain things will, some won’t. It’s hit or miss.

Since I was faced with your same dilemma, I’d go Altsteon first. You already have the PLM, so a single KPL (or even just a switch to check response times) would be minimal expense. If you like that, you’re done. If you want more, you’d can explore then.

I might have a spare KPL I can loan you, although the SmartHome return policy is good.

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[quote=“PurdueGuy, post:28, topic:170832”]Since I was faced with your same dilemma, I’d go Altsteon first. You already have the PLM, so a single KPL (or even just a switch to check response times) would be minimal expense. If you like that, you’re done. If you want more, you’d can explore then.

I might have a spare KPL I can loan you, although the SmartHome return policy is good.[/quote]

I think you are right about the built-in support. I should have mentioned, the reason i got a PLM is that i had (through a friend BIG into Insteon), already had a previous room setup with a KPL and (4) X10 lamp modules… which worked great as an independent system.

When i got Vera… i thought i just keep that investment in place… so i got the PLM. It never saw the x10 modules, but did work with the local load/switch, albeit about 70% of the time, and sometimes laggy. I don’t know if the reliability is a result of the built-in support, or a lack of additional (mesh) Insteon devices near. And when i looked at Altsteon, i honestly felt over my head on some of the stuff and decided that for only a need of 3 controllers, i’d just bite the cost for the Levitons. (PS… you are right… the other thing that bugs me about the Lev is that you cannot dim the local load!).

So i do fear the lag/response/reliability, just based on what I’ve already seen. But i’m wondering if the ISY with the Zwave (when is it out of beta?) would be a better way to go, and get rid of Vera? I could keep what i have, and just swap out the controller with KPLs.

Or maybe the new Fibaro will have better Leviton support? :wink:

(PS. I really appreciate you helping me think through this. I really thought i was picking the most robost HA alternative out there… and I probably went a little too fast in investing in modules, and now i’m a bit stuck).

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Back to the controller issue described by @tomgru.

As said, I think different things have been brought up: @jsed mentioned controlling non-Leviton devices wasn’t working as expected, but @tomgru is describing not being able to control a Leviton dimmer.

Getting multi-way setups with non-instant capable devices (Evolve) and the older generation Leviton controllers to stay in sync, may not be possible (as there is no external control over the controller’s LEDs).

@PurdueGuy:
Can you elaborate on the on/off only, no dimming part when you [tt]start mixing things[/tt]?

@tomgru:
Does it work when you create a separate scene for another button, with just the Leviton dimmer in it?
And what level are you setting the dimmer to in your scene?

Most of my controllers talk to to Leviton switches / dimmers, but I do have them control some GE modules as well. But not mixed in one scene right now.

So I just tried it with a GE and a Leviton plug-in dimmer on button 1 of a VRCZ4-MR and that works as expected.

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[quote=“oTi@, post:30, topic:170832”]@PurdueGuy:
Can you elaborate on the on/off only, no dimming part when you [tt]start mixing things[/tt]?[/quote]I might be mistaken, as I no longer have this setup. Before, I initially had GE dimmers directly associated with my Leviton zone controllers, via the Leviton programmer. I seem to remember those not dimming with the buttons, but I could be wrong. Once I switched to Leviton, dimming worked.

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[quote=“tomgru, post:29, topic:170832”]But i’m wondering if the ISY with the Zwave (when is it out of beta?) would be a better way to go, and get rid of Vera? I could keep what i have, and just swap out the controller with KPLs.[/quote]I don’t know what time timeframe for getting out of beta is, but basic devices (dimmers, relays, locks, and thermostats) are working. Based on then tests I have done with scene controllers, motion sensors, and multi-sensors, they aren’t working yet. They are supposed to be on the roadmap.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I am not getting rid of Vera, at least for now. It’s a go-between.

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[quote=“PurdueGuy, post:31, topic:170832”][quote=“oTi@, post:30, topic:170832”]@PurdueGuy:
Can you elaborate on the on/off only, no dimming part when you [tt]start mixing things[/tt]?[/quote]I might be mistaken, as I no longer have this setup. Before, I initially had GE dimmers directly associated with my Leviton zone controllers, via the Leviton programmer. I seem to remember those not dimming with the buttons, but I could be wrong. Once I switched to Leviton, dimming worked.[/quote]
Thanks for the clarification; that’s what I assumed you were referring to. And yes, that’s correct. Dimming with the buttons on the controller will not work when used with the GEs (as the controller essentially does not know the GEs are part of the scene).

I interpreted @jsed’s comments to mean that having a scene which sets a non-Leviton device to a specific dim level wasn’t working right; and @tomgru’s comments to mean that having a scene which sets a Leviton-device to a specific dim level (and turn on other non-Leviton switches in the same scene) isn’t working.

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[quote=“oTi@, post:30, topic:170832”]@tomgru:
Does it work when you create a separate scene for another button, with just the Leviton dimmer in it?
And what level are you setting the dimmer to in your scene?[/quote]

I just tried this. Created a scene with just the Leviton single-pole dimmer in it. Tested scene in MiOS… works.
Assigned the scene to a single button on the Leviton controller - still doesn’t work.
Then tried setting association - still doesn’t work.

This is controller I’ve been having some other problems with in general on scene reliability, but this seems to be a completely different issues. http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php?topic=21241.new;topicseen#new

Other things to try?

(PS. On a side note… i’m not sure what/why there is a double-tap option on the Leviton controller. I’ve found it by accident… seems to work sometimes when just a single press does not. is that documented and/or done on purpose? There is a lot of talk about it on other forums, but nothing that says that it’s a feature from Leviton and how/why it’s supposed to be used)

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  • What dim level did you use / full on, or something else?
  • Ideally, to rule out comms issues, test it with the devices and Vera close to each other.
  • The state of the LED will tell you whether the scene controller thinks the scene is active or not. For the dimmer to turn on, you’d want the LED to be off before your press the button. If it’s on and you press the button it will be off for a brief moment. If you do the second push at that time, it will launch the scene again. Not sure I’ve seen that mentioned in documentation / you shouldn’t need this of course if everything works properly.
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[quote=“oTi@, post:35, topic:170832”]- What dim level did you use / full on, or something else?

  • Ideally, to rule out comms issues, test it with the devices and Vera close to each other.
  • The state of the LED will tell you whether the scene controller thinks the scene is active or not. For the dimmer to turn on, you’d want the LED to be off before your press the button. If it’s on and you press the button it will be off for a brief moment. If you do the second push at that time, it will launch the scene again. Not sure I’ve seen that mentioned in documentation / you shouldn’t need this of course if everything works properly.[/quote]

Sorry… i knew i forgot something. No dim level set… full on/off in the scene.

I’ll try moving Vera closer and see what happens. Question… should i reconfigure device when i have them near each other, before i test?

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First, try setting the dim level to 50%, instead of full on.

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OK… set scene to come on at 50%. Verified that it worked though MiOS. (as an aside, this dimmer should be even worse than the Controller we are discussing on the other thread… but here’s the autoroute details: 24-13x,7-15,9-15,22-15)

IT WORKED… WEIRD!

so… i then added the Local load back, as well as the neighbor GE Switch to the scene, and kept the Leviton at a 50% dim rate… and IT worked as well.

I still have no idea… but here’s one detail. the GE switch is not dimmable; neither is the local load, per the Leviton limitations.

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Excellent.

There is a known bug with programming full-on (100%) on the controllers. Try 98% (not 99%), through the [tt]Advanced[/tt] tab, or change the action from a dimmer command to a switch command if you insist on full on. (Have a read around here and here.)

A GE dimmer can be dimmed with the rocker on the controller if you manually create the association, but keep in mind that Vera will not reflect the new level until a poll of the GE happens.

The local load is not dimmable as the controller does not contain a dimmer, just a switch. (It certainly would have been nice if they made two versions.)

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[quote=“oTi@, post:39, topic:170832”]A GE dimmer can be dimmed with the rocker on the controller if you manually create the association, but keep in mind that Vera will not reflect the new level until a poll of the GE happens.

The local load is not dimmable as the controller does not contain a dimmer, just a switch. (It certainly would have been nice if they made two versions.)[/quote]

Should be more clear. the GE is only a switch… so i can’t dim it from there, or the controller… so expected.

I hear you about the Leviton being a dimmer as well. I’m still amazed at the small amount of choice on wall controllers.

No worries on the 98%. it’s too bright full on anyway,… why i actually put the dimmer in! So this is a bonus, even if it’s a bug!