Hey Guys,
Finally got around to looking in to installing some zwave dimmers in my house. The house was built in 1982 and I opened up a gang box to check for a neutral wire which is a requirement for the Leviton VRMX1-1LZ. What i seem to see is a hot (black wire), a neutral (white wire) which are connected to the switch and a bare ground wire which appears to be wrapped/connected to the gang box (see attachment) .
Does anyone have any experience with a setup like this? Since theres a ground wire attached to the box, do I still need to connect a ground to the green screw on the Leviton VRMX1-1LZ? If so do I just use that bare ground currently connected to the box?
With regards to grounds; you should definitely still connect the switch’s ground. The typical way to do this is to run a ground wire between the switch and the ground screw on the gang box, where the circuit ground exists. Or, if the screw size makes securely connecting two wires to the screw impractical, then you would run a short ground wire from the gang box screw and the screw on the switch, and then bundle those two with the ground from the cable(3 ground wires) in a wire nut. Connect all the grounds!
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But, I’m afraid you have a bigger problem. Looking at your picture you have only two conductors, a black and a white of undetermined purpose. The VRMX1-1LZ requires three conductors a Line, a Load, and a Neutral. Typically two blacks and a white, though color doesn’t always indicate function.
It is my guess that your pictured switch is part of a switch loop circuit where the black is the line and the white is being used as the load(the colors may be reversed it doesn’t matter), with the neutral on the far side of the light. See the first diagram here for what switch loop wiring looks like. If your switch is part of a switch loop circuit, you cannot use the Leviton switch there, without running additional wires.
If you do have a switch loop and can’t run new wiring, then your next best option will be an in-wall Z-Wave module wired something like the attached diagram minus the second switch.
Thanks Guys. I plan to open the box back up tomorrow armed with a voltage meter to confirm that it’s only wired with a load and line, the switch actually controls a set of outdoor flood lighting so I`m not sure if this is standard wiring for the house or just isolated to this one gang box.
I will also open up a couple of the other 2-gang boxes in the house to determine if any of them have a neutral, although I do recall in one gang box seeing three wires wired to one of the switches, I believe 1 white and 2 black which would suggest load, line and traveler as that light can also be controlled from another 2-gang box at the top of the stairs, not sounding too promising!
Assuming my gang boxes are not equipped with a neutral, and considering I probably do not want to have to re-wire the house; Is anyone aware of ANY z-wave switches that can be wired without a neutral? (preferably with instant status) or is load, line, netural and ground the minimal requirement for all these switches?
I note that Z-waver had recommended the in-wall zwave modules, however I`d like to use switches if at all possible.
Switch loop wiring use to be pretty common. I wouldn’t be surprised if you found it throughout your home.
There use to be some dimmers from Intermatic and GE that did not require a neutral. I’ve seen many reports of the Intermatics failing recently, which appears to be related to their age, so I’d avoid those. The GE dimmers work(ed) alright with incandescent bulbs, but they won’t work with today’s LEDs.
All of the modern switches require neutral, line, and load.
While not a Z-wave switch, the Lutron Caseta line, does not require a neutral and are the smoothest dimmers I have found to date and dim LEDs great, though I completely hate the switch design (ugly 4 button awkwardness), the pico remotes can be used as a battery powered 3 way switch (and can be mounted over a j-box if needed), or as a scene controller (when integrated through the hub and plug in). You can integrate them into your Vera via a a Caseta Hub or Wink Hub, plus the associated plug in on Vera.
I went ahead and opened up two 2-gang boxes today, armed with a voltage tester. I was able to confirm that in some cases white is being used as a line wire, however in both the 2-gang boxes I opened, I also found a bundle of white wires at the back of the box taped with electrical tape which appear to be neutrals. I am still looking at the Leviton VRMX1-1LZ or GE Smart Dimmer 12724’s, but it is starting to look better than anticipated and may give me enough confidence to actually order some hardware.
That looks similar to my 2 and 3 gang boxes. A jumper from the neutral to each switch, and the line/load conductors in each switch, and you are in business.
@ldobson - Your two new pictures show a standard single pole switch with a Line and Load on the left.
On the right it appears that you have a 3-way switch with Line(bottom) and Travelers/Load(top black and white). That wiring without a three conductor cable, doesn’t keep the neutral on the same circuit. This will work and is not uncommon, but it is not National Electric Code(NEC) compliant.
The bundle of whites is almost positively a neutral bundle. By the way, that neutral bundle should definitely have a wire nut on it to hold it together and prevent it from shorting against anything in the box. Although it does look like they have a good binding twist to them, soldered and taped connections are no longer NEC compliant, if they ever were.
These new pictures are differently wired than the first one that you posted that strongly suggests a switch loop, as I described.
We’re talking about really basic household wiring. If you’re not already familiar with it, then I’d suggest that you have an electrician or someone more familiar with household wiring than you are, look at this and determine what you’ve got and give you a lesson on how it works.
Wire colors don’t necessarily mean anything and a mistake can cause a fire, an injury, or even death. Taking advice from strangers on the internet about what’s in your walls is not a safe approach for someone that is unfamiliar with what they are doing.
That said, it does appear that the newly pictured switches could be replaced with Z-Wave switches. The 3-way would need a 3-way kit, not just a single Z-Wave switch, and that’s a whole other kettle of fish.
Don & Z-Waver,
Thank you very much for your comments; and I am glad you concur that these look to be neturals (they didnt have any voltage) much appreciated!! The switch on the right is indeed a 3 way, however when i checked the cables for voltage the white was live which I believe to be line, the other wires only had voltage when the switch was on.
Good call on the wire nut! first thing I did was to remove the electrical tape and install a white nut cap on both netural bundles in both boxes. Most likely it was something the previous owner had done. I plan just to leave those neutrals twisted together and then add the neturals from both zwave switches to each secured with the wire nut. I also bought some ground screws and ground clips which i plan to try to use for grounding.
Yes, these boxes are certainly wired differently than the single 1-gang, as that 1-gang is a switch to external flood lighting, that may have been added later on at some point.
Well this has certainly been a learning experience; I hear you about safety! and although electrical is not my area of expertise (I`m in IT) I think i now have the basics down and the tools to retrofit the switches.
I decided to go with the Leviton VRMX1-1LZ 1000W Vizia RF switches (3X) mainly for the instant status and of course the matching remote for the 3-way Leviton VP00R-1LZ Vizia (1X). They should come in tommorow, so hopefully everything goes to plan.
Again thanks for the help
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