I hope someone can help me figure out my 3 way switch situation.
I finished the basement a few years ago and brought in an electrician to do the wiring. i replaced all the toggles with GE zwave switches, dimmers and 3 ways+addons
everything went perfect… everything went as expected. no surprises.
however, as I have started to move upstairs, the wiring is not as clear to me.
the house was built in the 90’s
but all my 3 ways seems non standard to me.
either 1 switch. has an in and out wire and the other just an in. or both switches have a single “in” wire.
in the case of my dining room, one switch has an in/out wire and the other switch just has an in wire.
see pics.
the GE switches seems to want 4 wires instead of 3 (2 blacks, a white and red) and then at the addon, nut the 2 blacks together and just use the white and red.
so based on the pictures. the one with the in/out wire, i could use 2 blacks a white and red… but at the other end, there are not 2 blacks for me to wire nut together, so that makes me think that white is not neutral?
but i’m not sure…
looking for help
thx
All z-wave switches require an extra wire. Which is a Neutral wire. The wiring is very simple if you follow directions. The 4 wires are Line, Load, Neutral, Traveler. The hard part is know which wire is which in your wall without testing the wires. I will not try and guess which wires are which as that’s when problems start. The right way would be to use a multi meter and test each wire to know which wire is the line in which wire is load out to the light, which wire is neutral and so on. If you have installed any other z-wave switches you would have ran into the same problem where the old switch has one less wire then the new ones.
There is also plenty of other 3-way or 4-way wiring threads on here with pictures showing different layouts.
[quote=“integlikewhoa, post:2, topic:191878”]All z-wave switches require an extra wire. Which is a Neutral wire. The wiring is very simple if you follow directions. The 4 wires are Line, Load, Neutral, Traveler. The hard part is know which wire is which in your wall without testing the wires. I will not try and guess which wires are which as that’s when problems start. The right way would be to use a multi meter and test each wire to know which wire is the line in which wire is load out to the light, which wire is neutral and so on. If you have installed any other z-wave switches you would have ran into the same problem where the old switch has one less wire then the new ones.
There is also plenty of other 3-way or 4-way wiring threads on here with pictures showing different layouts.[/quote]
Hey thanks for the reply… however you probably missed where i said the basement has completely different wiring… I know because i wired it myself (with an electrician present and instructing)
I fully understand that zwave switches need a neutral wire. that wasn’t really my question though.
in my 3 way set up, i have more wires in one box and less in another.
so in 1 box, i have an “in and out” wire, but in the other box, i only have a single “in” wire (composed of black, white, red, ground)
basically i need 2 black wires in both boxes and i only have 1 black wire at one of the boxes.
I hope someone who is familiar with this type of set up can likely look at the pics and tell me what i’m dealing with.
[quote=“mvader, post:3, topic:191878”][quote=“integlikewhoa, post:2, topic:191878”]All z-wave switches require an extra wire. Which is a Neutral wire. The wiring is very simple if you follow directions. The 4 wires are Line, Load, Neutral, Traveler. The hard part is know which wire is which in your wall without testing the wires. I will not try and guess which wires are which as that’s when problems start. The right way would be to use a multi meter and test each wire to know which wire is the line in which wire is load out to the light, which wire is neutral and so on. If you have installed any other z-wave switches you would have ran into the same problem where the old switch has one less wire then the new ones.
There is also plenty of other 3-way or 4-way wiring threads on here with pictures showing different layouts.[/quote]
Hey thanks for the reply… however you probably missed where i said the basement has completely different wiring… I know because i wired it myself (with an electrician present and instructing)
I fully understand that zwave switches need a neutral wire. that wasn’t really my question though.
in my 3 way set up, i have more wires in one box and less in another.
so in 1 box, i have an “in and out” wire, but in the other box, i only have a single “in” wire (composed of black, white, red, ground)
basically i need 2 black wires in both boxes and i only have 1 black wire at one of the boxes.
I hope someone who is familiar with this type of set up can likely look at the pics and tell me what i’m dealing with.[/quote]
Well I think your asking us how it is wired and yet you say you wired it yourself…
So can you tell us how its wired and we can tell you how to proceed?
or are you trying to get us to guess how you wired it?
It seems to be the latter unless I’m mistaken. Again wiring to the light switch is very easy when you know which wire is which. The switch is labeled and it has directions. The hard part is knowing which wire is which in your house as they can be wired many different ways (as I guess you see now) and wire colors can mean different things as you see you have several black wires. Line and Load probley are both black but which is which is difficult and only a guess from a picture. Since you wired it you should know that info or atleast can test with a meter (which from this side we can’t). If you can test or already know that info let us know and we can proceed.
[quote=“integlikewhoa, post:4, topic:191878”]Well I think your asking us how it is wired and yet you say you wired it yourself…
So can you tell us how its wired and we can tell you how to proceed?
or are you trying to get us to guess how you wired it?
It seems to be the latter unless I’m mistaken. Again wiring to the light switch is very easy when you know which wire is which. The switch is labeled and it has directions. The hard part is knowing which wire is which in your house as they can be wired many different ways (as I guess you see now) and wire colors can mean different things as you see you have several black wires. Line and Load probley are both black but which is which is difficult and only a guess from a picture. Since you wired it you should know that info or atleast can test with a meter (which from this side we can’t). If you can test or already know that info let us know and we can proceed.[/quote]
Sorry If i wasn’t clear… i wired the basement myself… i’m no longer putting switches in the basement, because that job already done (without issue).
i have moved on to the upstairs where the wiring was done by the home builders. that is where i’m unclear about the wiring. not the wiring in the basement.
basement = i wired = no problems
rest of house = someone i don’t know 20 years ago = not clear to me.
edit: that’s a great site… sadly it does look like option 3 is what i have…
that sucks… am i SOL for zwave switches in the rest of the house due to no neutral?
With #3 you can use the GE switches. The main switch looks easy the Aux switch you will need to re-purpose some wires coming from the light down to the aux switch.
You didn’t include any pictures of the wiring in the light and as you can see from the diagram we need those to confirm and match up.
You have enough wires in each box it’s just the aux box doesn’t have the right wires. Disconnecting them from the light and moving them around up there should give you what you need down in that AUX box.
If you will leave the old switch as shown in photo 0405161742a.jpg and only install a new zwave switch for the other the circuit should work correctly. See my really bad drawing to see how it all functions. They have saved money and not ran an a neutral wire to one of your boxes, the neutral wire isn’t needed anyway.
[quote=“integlikewhoa, post:7, topic:191878”]With #3 you can use the GE switches. The main switch looks easy the Aux switch you will need to re-purpose some wires coming from the light down to the aux switch.
You didn’t include any pictures of the wiring in the light and as you can see from the diagram we need those to confirm and match up.
You have enough wires in each box it’s just the aux box doesn’t have the right wires. Disconnecting them from the light and moving them around up there should give you what you need down in that AUX box.[/quote]
that i can do… i’ll drop the fixture tomorrow and see what i got…
I’ll post a pic.
thanks for the tips!
Your first picture is fine and would be where your accessory switch would go. You’d just need to carry the neutral down to it in the white wire (then black=line; red=traveler). The second picture confuses me. The second picture should have your line=black(1); load=black(2); traveler=red; neutral=white. So you’d put your primary switch i the second junction box and only run the load there. That’s how it should work…seems pretty straight forward. The problem is if you’re line is coming from the light. Then things get complicated (but it doesn’t look like that’s the case because your white in the first switch isn’t connected to “common”).
According to the GE documentation, you must use their addon switch in a 3 way setup.
i don’t know if this is true or not and they are just trying to sell you another switch, but they claim it will damage the primary if you use a standard 3 way in stead of their addon.
[quote=“magnum003, post:10, topic:191878”]Your first picture is fine and would be where your accessory switch would go. You’d just need to carry the neutral down to it in the white wire (then black=line; red=traveler). The second picture confuses me. The second picture should have your line=black(1); load=black(2); traveler=red; neutral=white. So you’d put your primary switch i the second junction box and only run the load there. That’s how it should work…seems pretty straight forward. The problem is if you’re line is coming from the light. Then things get complicated (but it doesn’t look like that’s the case because your white in the first switch isn’t connected to “common”).
Steve[/quote]
I’m going to take a look at what is up in the fixture tonight. but you say the 1st is fine and where the aux would go.
the concern i have is, 1) i don’t know if that white is actually neutral wire or not. and 2) they GE docs say to take the 2 black wires and wire nut them together. (thus sending power back down the wire) but here i only have the 1 black wire. so i don’t think i can just not use it, there is no way to send the power back
I’m hoping per integlikewhoa idea i can turn that white into a real neutral and then at the fixture just nut the 2 blacks up there thus sending the power back. like i would have done at the switch had there been 2 black wires.
i’m hoping anyways
it’s either that or the rest of my house doesn’t get zwave switches
which would be a bummer as i’m really liking them in the basement.
My wife said cant you just run new wires… lol
i was like sure, after i tear up all the walls in the house. she was like oh…
[quote=“mvader, post:13, topic:191878”][quote=“magnum003, post:10, topic:191878”]Your first picture is fine and would be where your accessory switch would go. You’d just need to carry the neutral down to it in the white wire (then black=line; red=traveler). The second picture confuses me. The second picture should have your line=black(1); load=black(2); traveler=red; neutral=white. So you’d put your primary switch i the second junction box and only run the load there. That’s how it should work…seems pretty straight forward. The problem is if you’re line is coming from the light. Then things get complicated (but it doesn’t look like that’s the case because your white in the first switch isn’t connected to “common”).
Steve[/quote]
I’m going to take a look at what is up in the fixture tonight. but you say the 1st is fine and where the aux would go.
the concern i have is, 1) i don’t know if that white is actually neutral wire or not. and 2) they GE docs say to take the 2 black wires and wire nut them together. (thus sending power back down the wire) but here i only have the 1 black wire. so i don’t think i can just not use it, there is no way to send the power back
I’m hoping per integlikewhoa idea i can turn that white into a real neutral and then at the fixture just nut the 2 blacks up there thus sending the power back. like i would have done at the switch had there been 2 black wires.
i’m hoping anyways
it’s either that or the rest of my house doesn’t get zwave switches
which would be a bummer as i’m really liking them in the basement.
My wife said cant you just run new wires… lol
i was like sure, after i tear up all the walls in the house. she was like oh…[/quote]
You don’t need to tear up the walls to run neutrals and there is always other ways around it too. In some cases its just a matter of using in wall micro switches up in the light fixture where you know there has to be both Hot and Neutral at some point. Also Altho I don’t like the idea there is also z-wave light bulbs that work best for individual lamps. So first things first but we can always explore other options if needed. Changing the switch is always the best way tho.
Also GE 3 way needs the set. Not just the main. Also I have GE 3ways and make sure you know the limitation on the aux switch. Even tho GE’s don;t have instant status they act as if tho they do when they are within direct range of the controller. Well the Aux will never do that either. So if you turn on the Aux swtich (not the main in this 3 way case) it will take several min or more to report or get polled by VERA. With that Said altho I love GE switches and used to by them cheap at Lowes that is no longer my choice. Lowes prices have went up, instant status patents have expired and now the market is changing where cheap instant status light switches are starting to flow. There has been some recent talks of DRAGON which have been out for some time.
Homeseer Just recently relabled Dragons with their name.
These switches can be found for as low as 36.00 with aux from 13.00 support instant status and like Homeseer shows (in videos also) they have double and triple tap options.
I probley have 60 GE switches in 3 houses but if I need any more there are better options. And GE also getting ready to come out with them also now that the Patent expired.
[quote=“mvader, post:13, topic:191878”][quote=“magnum003, post:10, topic:191878”]Your first picture is fine and would be where your accessory switch would go. You’d just need to carry the neutral down to it in the white wire (then black=line; red=traveler). The second picture confuses me. The second picture should have your line=black(1); load=black(2); traveler=red; neutral=white. So you’d put your primary switch i the second junction box and only run the load there. That’s how it should work…seems pretty straight forward. The problem is if you’re line is coming from the light. Then things get complicated (but it doesn’t look like that’s the case because your white in the first switch isn’t connected to “common”).
Steve[/quote]
I’m going to take a look at what is up in the fixture tonight. but you say the 1st is fine and where the aux would go.
the concern i have is, 1) i don’t know if that white is actually neutral wire or not. and 2) they GE docs say to take the 2 black wires and wire nut them together. (thus sending power back down the wire) but here i only have the 1 black wire. so i don’t think i can just not use it, there is no way to send the power back
I’m hoping per integlikewhoa idea i can turn that white into a real neutral and then at the fixture just nut the 2 blacks up there thus sending the power back. like i would have done at the switch had there been 2 black wires.
i’m hoping anyways
it’s either that or the rest of my house doesn’t get zwave switches
which would be a bummer as i’m really liking them in the basement.
My wife said cant you just run new wires… lol
i was like sure, after i tear up all the walls in the house. she was like oh…[/quote]
It doesn’t matter what that white actually does now. So long as it runs back to the second box which then can be pigtailed to the neutral bundle you have in the second box now, you’re good. You don’t have to worry about the pigtailed black wires on the GE install diagram. That picture is for typical installations (yours is not). Those pigtailed wires carry the load from the primary through the accessory to the fixture (so load is only controlled from primary). So you’re load will still be controlled from primary (to light fixture like a normal switch). You’ll then run hot/line on the black to your first picture, neutral on the white to your first picture and traveler on the red to your first picture. Done and done. Pretty straight forward so long as Line and Load both live in that second picture (with neutral).
How are you getting hot over to switch 742a? You’ll need it to power the switch (along with neutral and traveler).[/quote]
GE uses the traveler as the hot and doesn’t require a hot, neutral and traveler on the AUX. It only requires a Travler, Neutral and a bare Ground.[/quote]
