Vera (or other) + Dimmers, etc

Community Playground Getting Started & Initial Setup
1

This is my first foray into home automation (other than a Nest we installed). I heard of the veralite elsewhere but please tell me if I should go with something else, whether it’s vera3, or a different zwave solution or non-zwave, like insteon or maestro. I realize this is the micasaverde forum, so I’m likely going to be recommended one of the vera models - but if I shouldn’t go vera, then it would be nice to know.

The house is 2-stories 4,400 sqft - if that matters for veralite vs vera3. Our outdoor lighting has wired switches indoors, so I don’t think we need the outdoor covered by the wireless.

We recently replaced most of the incandescent bulbs with 3 varieties of LED bulbs (all dimmable).
FEIT 20W (90W replacement)
FEIT 15W (75W replacement)
Luminus EXT LED retrofit 18W
All from Costco.

We already put dimmers (electrician said they’re LED-compatible dimmers) on some of them and they work well, but we just got the idea to get into home automation and now it’ll be my project.

So if z-wave/vera is the recommendation, is there a decent z-wave dimmer that will work with these?
Eventually, I plan to possibly start putting in outlets/modules and other stuff.

2

See:
http://store.homeseer.com/store/HomeSeer-Z-Wave-OnOff-Wall-Switch-Comparison-W7.aspx

I recommend Instant Status as well … if you want the device to initiate other automation.

3

Also note that only some of these will support LED’s (in the true sense), as many of them don’t have a neutral, and thus send a little current through the bulbs in order to power the Z-Wave radio.

See this discussion thread for a better idea of what I mean here (it has a lot of detail):
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php?topic=9262.10

For a larger deployment, such as what you’re doing, there are limits on how far the Z-Wave signals will pass through house walls/floors (etc). If all of your deployed light switches are “close” together, then things are usually fine, but as the distance between nodes increases you’ll see issues start to crop up.

You’ll see some of the people here have extended the antenna on their units to aid in this issue:
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php?topic=11276.0

and others run 2 or more Vera units, at least once the house size gets large.

I have a single Vera3, with a modified antenna and a “dense” Z-Wave network (lots of Leviton devices) and it has a few issues in 2000 sqft, so start small/dense, and expand out over time to stabilize the net.

I have a few LED in the system, and they work mostly because I run them in batches of 4+ Bulbs at a time. The first lot I tried was the HD Utilitech 7.5W “40W equiv” bulbs, and they work well. I have them deployed in 2x locations, both using Leviton VRI06 dimmer units (see thread above for posted experiences)

I also have 4x Sylvania PAR30’s that I had to use a load on in order to avoid issues (also with a VRI-06 dimmer)

I have, somewhere, a few of Leviton’s Electronic VRE-06’s to test, but haven’t tried them out yet. These have a neutral, so should’t require a load, but they’re $$$

Anyhow, you may want to start somewhere small, get some experience (esp with LED and the current crop of ZWave switches), and grow it if it works. LED Lighting can be finicky for this type of stuff.

4

I have 5000 sq ft over 2 stories (2500 living, and 2500 garage/shop) … But pretty much an open plan.
I use a single Vera and have extended the Antenna.
I would also recommend the Vera 3 over the VeraLite (It has twice as much memory) … with your size house you could expand to a LOT of devices.

5

Thanks for the responses.

It’s good to see that there are dimmers that should work with LED bulbs on z-wave. I was starting to think that’s only possible with insteon.
I am starting to really question whether z-wave is the solution, or I should go with insteon or wait a little bit and go with wifi?
I like that insteon’s products look pretty sharp and have lots of applications, though I’m wary of being at the mercy of 1 manufacturer.

Leaving me with waiting for possible wifi to come out or z-wave. Or if I do go with z-wave, is vera the top choice? I guess I shouldn’t be asking this on the micasaverde forums - maybe cocoontech.

6

I went from X10 to Z-Wave …

Insteon is an upgrade of X10 … and practically equivalent to the powerline part of Insteon.

I find the Z-Wave more robust then my X10.

You are starting to see other wireless options for LED lights (Not WiFi compatible).
There is a WiFi product out … but it’s new … It does seem like a good technology candidate …
WiFi commodity should drive price down … but complexity for the protocol drives the component price higher … and of course there will need to be some intero standards … is UPnP the right strategy ?

I do not know what the horizon will look like in a couple years … for now I am happy.

7

So from the switches I’ve found and that are linked, none really have LED indicators that show how dimmed something is. They seem to only have one LED. The insteon have a strip of LED indicators.

@richard - I was under the impression that insteon is far more reliable than X10. No lights turning on/off on their own and good responsiveness. Correct me if I’m wrong though.

Also what I really like about insteon is that they have the KeypadLinc for setting up scenes, like “All lights off”. The closest thing I have found is the Leviton Vizia RF+ controllers, which for some reason cost double the price of the KeypadLinc. Alternatively, I can get the GE 45600 handheld remote, but I was really liking the in-wall ability.

Considering, I’ll also want to control through my Android and/or iPhones, the Vera would still be useful right (even if I go insteon)?

So is insteon connected to a vera as seamless as direct z-wave switches? In terms of latency, reliability, control. For example, can I still see whether the kitchen lights are on or not if it’s an insteon switch? (Like instant status).

And can I still use (for example) the GE handheld remote to control the lights?

8

As I indicated … I skipped the Insteon phase … I believe they kicked up their reliability via RF devices … But not all devices are RF capable …

I mostly use Leviton Z-Wave devices … they have an LED strip (i think 4 LEDS)

Do not waste your time or money (Even @ 3.00 which you can find on Amazon) for the GE 45600.

The MCV Vera Insteon interface is not very good. A forum member has a better implementation … (as I understand). The Insteon’s have instant status like capability … if the PLM does not miss the signal.

Vera and the mobile apps will control Z-Wave or Insteon devices equally well.
Plenty of very good IOS and Android Apps to control Vera.

9

Ok this is looking more and more doable to be on z-wave (only). Just somewhat more expensive due to leviton’s ridiculous prices.

I get:

  1. vera as the brains.
  2. leviton dimmers where ever I need a dimmer.
  3. A switch where ever I need a switch. Likely not leviton due to price. (So which is best here?)
  4. levitron 4-button zone controller where I want some fancy controlling of scenes. (this also allows me to dim still).
    A note: I want to make sure, this will all still give me instant status right? So I can know when something was turned on or off

Why do you say not to waste time/money on the GE 45600? Does it not work well? Other than cumbersome setup, reviews seem pleased.

Some use cases:
A. Turn on/off whatever using Android/iPhone.
B. Create scene in vera when hit by one of the 4-button controllers that turns off all of the lights on the first floor
C. Create situation where if the time is between 12AM and 5PM, turn off the kitchen lights IF the switch hasn’t been touched in the last 3 hours (like a sort of idle time-out). [hence the need for instant status on switches/dimmers]

C is just a basic example, but I’m wondering if that kind of advanced scene control is possible with the set up listed above.

10

Royal200H,

Do a search for the GE 45600 on this forum and you’ll find people having issues with the remote and Vera.

If you want instant status, you’ll need to fork up the extra money to go with Leviton or Cooper switches. I highly suggest that you invest in the better switches on areas were you’ll get the most use. In areas in my home where there is not so much use, I use the less expensive z-wave switches which I do not require instant status support.

I have a combination of Insteon and Z-wave in my home, I am slowly replacing my Monster Scene controllers (older Leviton models) with KeypadLincs as they offer more buttons and can be integrated with Altseon (which works well). I also picked up an Universal Devices ISY Insteon controller to eventually get incorporated into Vera.

  • Garrett
11

Perfect, so you have experience with both Leviton switches and Insteon. Once altseon is installed, is there any difference between the insteon switches/controllers and leviton (other than 6-8-button vs 4-button)?

At that point do I just consider cost of (insteon PLM + insteon switches/controllers) vs (cost of leviton switches/controllers)? And they’re all interoperable?

12

Insteon and Altsteon integration is not for the faint of heart. It will require a little bit of knowledge. I highly recommend that you go to the Insteon sub-forum and read up on the threads to get an idea.

The Insteon KeypadLincs will be similar to what the Leviton scene controllers do on Vera. With altsteon setup, you can create scenes that use the KeypadLinc buttons as the trigger and perform the actions you want. This is the same with Leviton.

  • Garrett
13

While I’m new to the Home Automation technologies, I do have fair unix experience, at least to the extent where I think I can follow the “[Altsteon] Getting Started / How-To Read First” guide. Unless it’s usually a lot worse than that…?

I have found a slight quirk.
With Leviton, the 4-button controller can dim other switches, but can only be an on/off switch itself (no dimming load). There’s no 4-button controller + dimmer.

With Insteon, the KeypadLincs can also dim other switches, but to dim its own load, it is no longer dual-band. If you want dual-band, you lose on dimming its load.

So neither is perfect and I figure losing out on RF is probably crucial enough where I shouldn’t buy the KeypadLinc with dimmer.

14

Garrett, are you able to comment on the reliablilty of insteon’s switches (whether dual band or not)? I don’t want lights to be unresponsive or have the “we’ll magically turn on if we want to” effect.

I contacted Insteon and they said:

For the keypad linc we are getting a dual band/ dimmer towards the end of the year. We are aiming for September.

I contacted Leviton too, but no response yet.

15

I only have keypadlincs for now and they have not caused me any issues when running with altsteon.

  • Garrett