UI5 on Vera2

Community Playground General Discussions
1

Upcoming rant, sorry! :-[

I recognize that for resource starved engineering companies, developing a new product will consume most (all?) of their resources. It seems, MCV is no exception. And, for the record, I don’t expect them/you to be!

I’ve spent the past 15-20 years in this line of business (hardware/software development), and know, as well as have been one of them, that engineers love to focus on their next product. It’s new, it’s shiny and it’s fun! (because it’s new & shiny, etc, etc).

However, the successful software engineering company behaves as if the people who bought their product in the past are the most important people to satisfy, at all times. (Think Apple, BMW, Ford - after the mid 2000s, etc, etc). They are - and I realize how this is a news flash to us all :wink: - even more important to keep happy than the development/sustaining/support engineers!

The issue with UI5, or UI4 or UI3 (UI3 was the first “transition” I saw with my Vera) isn’t that it’s not technically a “good enough” product (it probably is once we get a couple of revs in and these really dumb bugs on Vera2/UI5 combinations, the plugin incompatibilities, etc are resolved). Nor is it that the UI changed. The issue is in my view what appears - and since few/none of us have insight into the realities of the company, the appearance is everything - to be a systemic lack of interest in ensuring your installed customer base (us) have a satisfying experience whenever you make changes to the HW or SW. I.e. your installed base needs to become your number one priority! It will cost you a whole lot less money (and effort) to do that than to continuously having to create and capture a new customer base!

Absolutely, there are individuals at MCV who go above & beyond!

But the point is that, at large, MCV isn’t behaving/appearing to behave as if you’re selling “ease of use”, “home automation for the average Joe” or any other experience. At the moment, you are behaving as if you’re selling widgets. Let me - and I’m sure I’m not the first one to do this - tell you in no uncertain terms; You are not!

MIOS and Vera[2|3] are the commodities you’re selling, sure. But they’re not your product. Your product consists of the experience we, consciously or sub-consciously, expect to have by buying your commodities. And at the moment, as a Vera1 & Vera2 owner (decommissioned my Vera1 once I got the Vera2), I’m being hosed by UI5! I also got hosed by UI4 and had a far less than satisfying experience with UI3! Unfortunately, I see nothing to indicate that UI6 (should it, inevitably, appear) will deliver a different experience…

I also believe I’m in a demographic that should be central to your business; the (somewhat) advanced home automation nerd with enough money to spare on buying Z-Wave components (widgets) to satisfy my natural curiosity and nature as well as my hankering for pushing the technology boundaries/smarts of my home while saving a couple of bucks/year in energy costs and feeling better about myself for - correctly or incorrectly - thinking I have a “reduced carbon footprint” (yech! ;-)).

So, here’s my “call to action” for MCV: You need to prioritize your installed base. By doing so, you will attract new customers as well. By frustrating it, as you do with a degree of regularity that is nearly comical if it weren’t for the ramifications of doing so, you have to spend more money than any company - ultiamtely - has available to them, in order to capture new & fresh customer segments. And for those of us who have invested time, effort and a little bit of money, that means we’ll wind up stranded.

I want MCV to succeed. I really do! However, I believe that means a completely different approach to your business than the one you presently (and historically) have been appearing to take. It means taking a thorough and honest look at who you are and who you want to be.

By the way, if you’ve already done this and the people buying the Vera isn’t a focus of your business anymore, have the decency to tell us in no uncertain terms so we can rant, move on, find a product that does meet our needs and then bite the bullet and transition!

PS: Sorry, this got long and (possibly) annoying. But having spent my share of money on this product, I want it to succeed and breaking plugins and code without clearly articulating that this would happen as part of the upgrade was what set off this rant that I’ve been thinking about for a long time now. To me, not telling me that as a Vera2 user, I should only upgrade to UI5 if I do not mind the possible impact to most/all of my plugins and that there were fundamental changes to the underlying code which may cause issues is d*mn near inexcusable!

2

And this evening, I’m going to take on the (painful!) task of downgrading to UI4 again… :frowning:

3

I’m afraid this is par for the course for this sort of business model in my experience. Basically, after purchase, there is no further revenue stream to MCV. The only way they get more money is to sell another box, so they have to keep recruiting new customers. This only works if the margins are high, the product is solid, and the market is big. Right now the margin probably isn’t that great, most people need more money in tech support costs than the money MCV made on the box (this is an area that could be improved!), and the market is still a bit too niche.

I know everyone who has bought a Vera feels entitled to free updates to the software (myself included), but I almost wish there was a nominal upgrade cost involved ($15 for a new version) or something. With several embedded development tools or software I have purchased in the past from small companies, everything dies off after a couple years when the market becomes saturated. I now prefer to buy tools with a “maintenance” fee, as much as it irks me when it comes due, because I know that is incentive to keep the business going and stop my initial investment from becoming obsolete.

4

[quote=“marcoose, post:3, topic:169799”]I’m afraid this is par for the course for this sort of business model in my experience. Basically, after purchase, there is no further revenue stream to MCV. The only way they get more money is to sell another box, so they have to keep recruiting new customers. This only works if the margins are high, the product is solid, and the market is big. Right now the margin probably isn’t that great, most people need more money in tech support costs than the money MCV made on the box (this is an area that could be improved!), and the market is still a bit too niche.

I know everyone who has bought a Vera feels entitled to free updates to the software (myself included), but I almost wish there was a nominal upgrade cost involved ($15 for a new version) or something. With several embedded development tools or software I have purchased in the past from small companies, everything dies off after a couple years when the market becomes saturated. I now prefer to buy tools with a “maintenance” fee, as much as it irks me when it comes due, because I know that is incentive to keep the business going and stop my initial investment from becoming obsolete.[/quote]

I totally agree. I have had issues with Vera support in the past but the reality of it is, they have no revenue stream to maintain and support a product like this. Can you imagine what the current support structure is going to be like when Vera starts selling retail in places like Home Depot, where it suddenly becomes a spontaneous purchase or a gift?

I would gladly pay for upgrades or even a support contract of some sort. Of course I would expect MUCH better service in return.

5
I would gladly pay for upgrades or even a support contract of some sort. Of course I would expect MUCH better service in return.

Even if we throw money at MCV, it would be difficult for MCV to hire qualified support staff due to the lack of documentation.

IMHO the critical success factors for MCV are:

[ul][li]Providing decent documentation to cut down support costs.[/li]
[li]Fixing basic bugs and Luup API flaws in the MiOS core engine to cut down support costs.[/li]
[li]Committing to a single GUI to cut down support costs.[/li]
[li]Committing to a list of supported Z-Wave devices to cut down support costs.[/li]
[li]Making sure to not run out of hardware to not having to push early beta versions into the market.[/li]
[li]Providing a software only version of MiOS to accommodate the power users.[/li][/ul]

6

I agree with everything y’all are saying.

In my mind, the need to charge for upgrades (or support, or both) may very well be the correct and desirable outcome of a re-evaluation of what product (read “experience”) MCV wishes to sell (end-to-end).

Deciding on the product (experience) they want to sell is - necessarily - going to drive the behavior they have to engage in, if they wish to be successful, which in turn will help determine the revenue requirements, etc, etc. We may very well not be “it” as far as the (correct) target demographic for their product (experience). As a matter of fact, it’s possible we were never “it”…

7

You make very good points sjolshagen and mbairhead.

I had very similar thoughts myself as I wasted my sunday downgrading my Vera 2 to UI4 and reinstalling plugins from scratch.

I too have been in the embedded devices business for many years and I have sympathy for the difficulties that businesses face.

However the UI5 release was not of a release quality. It was beta code which should have been explained as such. Had I known it was a beta I could have held off, or would have taken steps to ensure I had better backups to prevent me from losing data. I accept it was my fault to trust the vendor on this, but it is a shame that I will feel less able to do so when future releases come out.

I also completely understand how difficult it is to provide a decent level of engineering and support without a revenue stream to support that process, and I have been wondering about the MCV model which I perceive to be based on sales of hardware.

I am not against paying for a decent level of support, although as ever the price-point vs support would have to be pitched correctly. I’m sure others would feelt the same. Perhaps something to think about.

Alex

8

This is one forum thread that contains good business advice. I hope that MCV is taking note.

9

I’m not sure if I am qualified to offer business advice for MCV, but I certainly hope that they succeed. Vera may have its warts but I really enjoy mine. I do worry about the same thing several of you have mentioned, namely, where is the margin for support in Vera’s price point?

My budget for H/A is very limited, not necessarily because I can’t afford it but also because my wife doesn’t see the value in it. Vera is slowly winning her over, she has been recently making scenes and controlling things from her android phone, but there is still no way I could spend thousands of dollars on a system. Vera has been a real boon for me as I can do 90% of what I want with the Vera and write my own code on other systems for the rest. I definitely have gotten my money’s worth out of Vera and then some, but I understand that my tolerance for disruption is probably a little higher than other people.

Now that I have the newest build of UI5 things seem to be working better for me. I installed UI5 with the full expectation that things wouldn’t work for a week or so, so I’m not complaining. My strong advice to any one using Vera that isn’t ok with that is to let the dust settle for a few days before installing a new firmware.

10

All good points guys! Let’s face it though… How pissed would we all be paying for updates that have gotten worse over time? I’m a reseller & me getting a return call from them is near impossible, so forget a regular user…

From Vera 1 they lost focus, BADLY!!! The videos are so old that they are pointless. The only thing I can say is that the last UI4 update fixed my ghost of switches turning on… For 7 months I would come home with unwanted lighting on or right before my eyes… No rhyme or reason and would do it whenever it wanted in all different parts of the house. Not so green people! Would they like to get the increased cost of my electrical bill for those months?

It all boils down is that no one is offering this setup at this price. Until someone else does. It will either lights a fire under their butts or put them out of business because they have ticked off people so bad… I would hate to see this, but I have been in the business for over 25 years & have seen these companies come & go sadly…

11

Very well said sjolshagen et.al.

I am and have been extremely frustrated tangled in a love-hate affinity with Vera.

tonight tech support downgraded me to UI5 in order to make my Yale lock work correctly. It seems like maybe it is working now and my batteries might last longer than 3 days. we will see.

What really is pissing me off is that after spending well over 100 hours tweaking my Foscam cameras to stream video remotely, now they do not work at all and there is not even a “streaming” button. What happen to the panasonic app?

Why in the ef…ing hell do they upgrade like this? The old interface looked great and they should have made it solid. Why is there no dedicated Foscam app?

I am a general contractor and have many clients that Want cameras, locks and thermostats since most all of them are second homeowners whose homes are ski cabins.

I could sell tons of these things if the stuff just worked right.

It does not seem like they even want to sell units. the MiCasa Verda website is confusing as hell and not interlinked correctly (“shop” is a subdomain?, how in the hell is that support the main root domain?) Just go to the shopping section and try to find your way back to the main site and support section etc…and to make matters worse they have absolutely no idea about SEO. Not even a “title tag” to explain to search engines what the home page is about. The documentation is all over the place and dependent on the UI version you are running.

you should be able to google “inexpensive home automation” and Vera should be all over the search results.

depending on where you are at (geographically) my website comes up before any sighting of MiCasa Verde and I am a building contractor that only hobbies in home automation and SEO/SEM. I have one small blog post about Vera. Throw “tahoe” into any home automation search query and you will see my site. I get several calls every week from people looking for home automation solutions. I am wondering if I should just start learning about Homeseer and other options rather than get my clients stuck in the hell I go through trying to make all the components work correctly with Vera. I am not looking forward to all the call backs I will be getting failed Vera systems.

Seriously MiCasaVerde you need to slow down and regroup. Have regular users test your stuff in addition to tech head beta testers. I am pretty tech savvy and find every step of the way very time consuming.

I think there is some incredible opportunities for Vera and MiCasaVerde to really grab some major market share in home automation field but to do so they better think of the layman users and not just how their developers see things. Get a CEO that does not understand the technology but wants to use it (someone that represents the populace). He will get frustrated. Think Apple.

12

I’ve been watching these forums for the past year… reading some threads, issues, complaints, and most importantly… lack of MCV support on pretty much everything.

I don’t own a Vera. I REALLY want to… the price point is perfect IF the product was not buggy as hell and the support was even close to being a 5 out of 10.

I have done home automation for a long time and setup HA and HT for others as a small basically a side business. Over the past 10+ years, I’ve used many different commercial and DIY products/apps. To give you an idea…I did wireless touchscreen devices 8 years ago using WindowsCE 8" touchscreens.

In the 10+ years I’ve done this I found that like MCV, all of these companies are clueless with a few exceptions like: HAI, ELK, etc. They can ‘build’ products that are decent (I’m not saying good - that is a stretch for most) but they lack two things…

1st & Largest issue) Lack business savvy. Including sub-categories like: support model, customer focus, marketing smarts, etc.
2nd issue) Technical foresight. I see companies making poor technical decisions which make product support much more difficult.

These issues usually stem from one or more of a few root problems…

[ul][li]Person(s) running the show are not business people, they are technical.[/li]
[li]Technical decisions are made based on “what we know” or “what is easiest” - not what is best overall.[/li]
[li]They have no one that has the job and/or expertise with the marriage of business and technical strategy[/li][/ul]

My last job, which I spent 4 years doing, was consulting for companies that designed/built/sold very specialized products. Many are privately funded start-ups and many were public companies. I’ve seen some do it badly, and many it very well… like a company that has a box that is red where you get movies :wink:

I’ve worked with over 100 companies in the last 5 years… I’ve had the benefit of seeing most do decent up to VERY well. But I know the signs of when they are destined to fail or just float just holding their head above water and doing nothing else of note.

From what I’ve seen of MCV either they will get VERY LUCKY and a company that knows what they are doing will buy them and clean house… or they will get venture funding - and they will run the show and get MCV in order… or MCV will float along until a bigger fish, like Smarthome, runs MCV out of the market. BTW, Smarthome has been developing an appliance that if they bring to market what they told me they are, at the price-point, and it works well… you all might be buying one to replace your buggy Vera.

bottom-line… until I start to see MCV put in serious effort for supporting the forums/community and fix serious bugs I’m not spending any $ on a Vera.

13

exactly Aaron; did you read my mind?

[quote=“Aaron, post:12, topic:169799”]These issues usually stem from one or more of a few root problems…

[ul][li]Person(s) running the show are not business people, they are technical.[/li]
[li]Technical decisions are made based on “what we know” or “what is easiest” - not what is best overall.[/li]
[li]They have no one that has the job and/or expertise with the marriage of business and technical strategy[/li][/ul][/quote]

Yep. like I said in my post above, “Get a CEO that does not understand the technology but wants to use it (someone that represents the populace). He will get frustrated.”

Frustrated like any normal non tech savvy person does that messes with Vera.

14

This thread made me wonder how viable Vera’s market really is. I saw there are approximately 11,000 members on this forum. Assume half are active with a Vera, that’s a total market of 5000 to 6000 units (assuming just about all Vera owners are on the forum). At around $200/piece thats a TOTAL market of only $1M. Without any additional revenue streams, I am surprised they can maintain any level of support – and I wonder if it explains the poor quality of the software.

15

I get to stay afloat they need to keep selling boxes, but it seems MCV thinks the only way to do that is with flashier and flashier UI updates. Even if that appeals to prospective customers, the word that it doesn’t work reliably is going to get out and kill sales.

I suspect there is a much larger market for a more “hackable”, very stable core engine than MCV thinks. If they slimmed down the UI back to a basic UI2, made the engine/API rock solid, and there was some space on the box for people to put their own UI pages/plugins, everyone who was into Arduino and that sort of thing would be buying a box to tinker with. Exposing the scheduler and some simple event-driven APIs would allow people to develop and publish their own Boolean logic plugins, scene managers, and all sorts of very specialized UIs. Plus it would be “community supported” and MCV wouldn’t have to do anything other than ensure the basic API’s worked. All downloads from the Vera Marketplace (which would start getting contributions) would be caveat emptor.

16

MCV is not just a consumer market. They have other OEM deals. So they also get a big chunk of change from those deals.

  • Garrett
17

[quote=“garrettwp, post:16, topic:169799”]MCV is not just a consumer market. They have other OEM deals. So they also get a big chunk of change from those deals.

  • Garrett[/quote]

Hmmm… are they OEMing the software, hardware or both? What other applications are out there besides home automation?

18

After upgrading to UI5 on vera 2 I’ve noticed that there is an (>2s) delay from the sensor capturing a motion until a light is turned on.
It used to be almost instant with the very same luup code on UI4. Has anyone else the same experience?

19

[quote=“sjolshagen, post:1, topic:169799”]Upcoming rant, sorry! :-[

MIOS and Vera[2|3] are the commodities you’re selling, sure. But they’re not your product. Your product consists of the experience we, consciously or sub-consciously, expect to have by buying your commodities. And at the moment, as a Vera1 & Vera2 owner (decommissioned my Vera1 once I got the Vera2), I’m being hosed by UI5![/quote]

I think this is what I have been trying to say to all my colleagues and clients etc.

My current clients and myself are not enjoying “the experience” and as such my clients are bad mouthing Vera to other potential clients.
The last thing they think is that Vera is user friendly. Maybe it is for the tech’s and geeks in this forum and that run MCV but not for the average Joe. User should not have to hack Luup codes etc. and search through help guides that are for different UI versions.

If they would just listen and get someone running things that is normal (not technologically inclined) then maybe they could tap into the huge market that exists for “inexpensive home automation” … which of course is hard when: Vera, MCV etc do not even show up in search queries.

20

So you assume that all the vera owners are registered forum users? I know of three users who did not know about the forum and I have 6 clients on Vera that do not use the forums. So that would make 5009 to 6009 units.