Time to ditch Vera / Z-wave for good...

Well, after some very tough internal dialog, I have come to the conclusion that this project is just exactly like every other Z-wave “solution” I have tried so far. First was Logitech Harmony 890, then came Hawking Remote Gateway, and most recently Vera.

Up until this point, it seemed like MCV had been fairly responsive to end-user bug reports, etc. But recently, it seems that instead of addressing bug reports of current users on most recent official builds, they are also going the way of everyone else and “we will fix it with the next UI”. Unacceptable.

It’s really sad to see a technology with so much promise, and absolutely not a single company that I can find who has put their dedication into getting it truly right. I can’t decide if it’s that the funding runs out, or patience, if it’s boredom in the project, or if it’s greed that sets in…but it seems like this technology will never get off the ground because start-ups initially don’t have the money to advertise main-stream, and then once they make a little money with their initial customer-base, they begin a serious development phase (that is very short-lived), they lose sight of their original target demographic and purpose, take on a huge new “this will be bigger and better and fix everyone’s problems and make everyone happy” project (which usually comes along with a “small monthly convenience charge”), and they are never heard from again. Seems like Vera / MCV has hit this stage (or is very, very near).

“Six weeks, six weeks, we’re so close…the beta-testers love it…hang in there guys…” I’m sorry, but I’ve heard this song and dance long enough, and I’ve heard it from enough other companies (Intermatic, Logitech, Hawking and probably some others in the closet collecting dust that I have even forgotten about) that I’m truly going to box ALL of the thousands of dollars of Z-wave stuff up and wait for it to become a collector’s item that I can sell on eBay one day. (HA!)

Seriously, I’ll probably be posting lots of very gently used stuff out there…two Harmony 890 pros, Hawking Gateway and Wifi Camera, Vera (Build 1, UI2 “final” release), a Trane (Schlage Link) thermostat, and a whole truckload of Intermatic in-wall switches, in-wall dimmers and every wall-wart combination you can think of out there very soon for anyone interested. I’m moving, and have to take it all out anyway, and don’t have the heart to put it in the new place. A new place is a new beginning, and I don’t want to take this very old (going on 5+ years) disappointment with me any longer.

I sincerely wish you all good luck. I still have hope for the concepts, and maybe one day someone will come along and truly “revolutionize” the industry.

P.S. Merely a side note…everything I have is currently working without a single hitch. It’s just sad to see new adoptees trickling in all the time being told “it won’t do that yet” (for things already advertised as working)…or “we’ve been waiting for that fix for _____”…or “if you can just hang on long enough, we’re releasing the above-all-end-all solution to all the problems we’ve had so far”. MCV is nowhere to be found, and we’re stuck trying to help each other and the first person with a negative word is accosted by the one or two MCV “trollers” who seemingly happen to wander into the forum purely by accident. I have always disliked the posts from MCV personnel as they sound condescending and just flat-out rude at least 75% of the time. I have never seen a single post where they take responsibility or even say “I’m sorry for the trouble you are having” without also saying “well, if you would READ the previous posts” or “you guys just need to be more patient and less demanding because we’re doing the best we can” or something else equally dismissive. Remember, guys, these customers are the very best (or very worst) advertising you have. Talk to them like people, not like “underlings”.

I’ll give you a $100 for everything so you don’t have to get upset when you see it. ;D

I’ll up that offer to $101? :wink:

Seriously though PM me with a list of everything your selling as I’m still trying to buy some things slowly.

Sorry to see you go though! I must add that I also had a Hawking gateway and a Harmony 890; Vera despite its bugs and annoyances cant be put into the same category though. UI4 is looking pretty good!

I think Support could do with a shakeup though!

I think you should be a bit more patient until the UI4 is released. It is a vast improvement compared to UI3, and is also better (in my opinion) to UI2.

However, if you are seriously departing the Z-wave world, PM me, and I will take your equipment off your hands.

-Robert

I agree with the word “patience” … being a newbie with 5 months of experience at a vacation home while doing one basic project at a time and getting GREAT response/help fro MCV … I now have 4 Trane thermostats, 6 switches, 8 dimmers, HSM100 with siren … all this on U13.

Sorry you feel Vera/Z-wave is not up to par.

I guess patience is the key and I think the problem is perception more than anything.

MCV support always seems to come through in the end; but I think where they may not be so good, is communication with the customers and letting them know they are working on problems. I have also noticed a pattern that when there is a big release pending, it seems support staff are generally assisting testing of the new software, or they may also be too Dependant on developers to provide support?!

That being said, I think most of the problems we encounter are because of the wide range of devices supported and the bespoke nature of the beast; this makes it very difficult to support.

To be honest I like the fact things don’t quite just always work, and that I do have to play around a bit and tweak to get things working the way I like. Where would the fun be :wink:

I think anyone who wants to get into any flavor of HA must be prepared to work a bit and If you want a system that doesn’t take any effort then I think the only real answer is to get it installed by a vendor with a set list of supported devices and have them support it when it doesn’t work as expected.

If this is purely just a case of GUI hate with UI3 then I’m amazed it caused a lot of anger. I only ever used it for setup purposes and have been using SQ remote for about 6 months now and never really cared much about how UI2 or UI3 looked. I actually stayed with UI3 long enough to learn to like it (this was an SQ remote beta requirement); with some tweaks it would have been quite good as some things were a bit counter intuitive.

Anyway, roll on UI4!

Brad the system will never work properly for you even with UI4 so just sell me all the stuff on the cheap. You other guys stop trying to add money to the pot. Okay $102

@Brad,

$102.50, I’ll throw in an old ABBA CD too and lets call it a deal! :slight_smile:

I’ll buy it all for $130 a Journey CD. :stuck_out_tongue:

Good to see that where there was dark, there is now light :slight_smile:

I feel your pain Brad, I’ve been on the edge of the same decision ever since I started this. Though I didn’t get the Vera that is advertised and all the videos have very little to do with the product I actually received and a lot of the instructions on the wiki make absolutely no sense to me and I’m having to replace failing switches faster than I can order them, I’m hanging in there a bit longer. I don’t have hope that support for these products (or the products themselves) are going to get better, I’m hoping for stasis. After all the time and money I’ve put into this, I’m really hoping that one day I’ll actually be able to hit a button on a remote and lights will actually do what I want them to do. That my master bedroom light won’t come on to 89% at 2am, despite the fact that I haven’t set any scenes up for that room, that people won’t ask “how do you turn the lights on in here” when they walk in a room.

Some day :wink:

I’m hanging in there, there is just too much promise and plus, what would I do with that extra time I spend wondering why certain lights didn’t go off and on when my scene is activated ::slight_smile:

Vera and Z-wave is with me to stay…

6 paragraphs of massive whine and then paragraph #7: “Oh by the way, works great”!!!

Please MCV, provide this man his own personal concierge!!!

[quote=“gatorbaw, post:13, topic:166065”]6 paragraphs of massive whine and then paragraph #7: “Oh by the way, works great”!!!

Please MCV, provide this man his own personal concierge!!![/quote]

The reality is gatorbaw, not one place in anyone’s literature does it say “Total pain in the butt, must be willing to endlessly troubleshoot and have a super high frustration threshold”. All this stuff, including…actually, especially MCV says “Easy to set up and use” but this stuff isn’t plug and play and there isn’t a lot of plane English instructions to found out there. I don’t see this as whining as much as I see it as someone who’s just tired of spending HOURS trying to do the most simple thing that was advertised as easy to do.

Yes MCV, where is the concierge? I want one too!

Exactly my point, mbairhead. This was advertised as “user-friendly, anyone can do it, blah blah blah”.

I, personally, happen to be electronically and techno-gadget inclined (with no formal training) and can handle setup and operation of this device (though not with the functionality promised). My parents / friends…no way. If this thing was on the shelf at Best Buy, it would’ve been packed right back up in the first 15 minutes and returned by any one of them.

Just reading down through the replies here, it’s very plain to see that this project (and Z-Wave in general) is still very much in “developmental” stages. People who are here like to “tinker” with projects like this. I used to like to tinker with it, myself. And then when friends / colleagues / family see my system and beg for me to set one up for them, I have to tell them “sorry…can’t…don’t have the time to do MCV’s (or Logitech’s or Intermatic’s) tech support for them”.

Yes, Gator, 6 paragraphs of “whine”. And, the functionality that I have been able to set up does work fine (after countless hours of tinkering). However, the IR capability still isn’t online, the true “Home Automation” features still aren’t online…and all we get is “it’s almost ready…it’s almost ready…hang in there guys”. At what point are we supposed to stop hanging in there? And, meanwhile, I see tons of posts from users who need issues fixed who aren’t really being helped, just promised that UI4 will be the messiah.

The Z-Wave platform alone has proven that when you open up development to every guy who will slap a Weed-Eater motor into a Ferrari and begin selling a product utilizing this technology (even though you publish standards and guidelines) that there are still people required behind the scenes at MCV and others like them that have to “tweak” their software to play nicely with new hardware.

Gator, that really was my point. All of these issues…a whole forum of people who have to help and bounce ideas off of each other to try and make this system work like it was advertised…and the first person who gets frustrated and posts something not all sunshine and butterflies…well, there’s always people like you (and the programmer-types at MCV) who are quick to jump that person to try and make them feel even more stupid or more inept. Does it bother me? Nah. I know you reply to crap like this because you don’t have a life or a girlfriend and you spend all your time looking through forums like this for people to harass. But would I turn my mom or a friend or co-worker loose in an environment like this? Most definitely not.

For all of the rest of you who tried to add a little humor and some light to the subject, I truly do appreciate it. All in all, I have somewhat enjoyed this project. I’m just tired of maintaining it. And I’m tired of the “next time we’ll get it right, we promise” attitude from MCV and all of the others before them. This is not what it is advertised as being…and I doubt it ever will be.

I don’t know if its just me but when I read this posts I can’t help but wonder how some people can have so many problems. Yes there are issues but most are well known and reported in this forum so it shouldn’t be a surprise during installation. I have 26 devices now and since moving to the last release of UI3 I must say that I am almost bored since the system is so stable. My two 4 scene controllers are not working correctly but that is a known problem and has been fixed in UI4 so I can wait, not the end of the world for me. Maybe this hobby is not for everyone but even so there are a lot of great people on this forum filling in where MCV support fails. I suppose lots of patience is required but I can’t get all worked up when people post these kinds of rants. My Vera is here to stay…

[quote=“alfonsec, post:9, topic:166065”]I’ll buy it all for $130 a Journey CD. :p[/quote]Its all over when somebody offers a Journey CD, cant compete with that! :slight_smile:

I posted the same post as Brad, the OP, but it was in the Linux Media Center Forums. They have a video that makes LMCE look like the easiest thing to setup and the be-all end-all best HTPC solution in the world…for free. I was so frustrated with trying to build a compatible PC with supported components, after reading and searching endless forum posts and weeks of experimentation to build a LMCE HTPC I just gave up. In my post there was much more whining, I whined like a… well, you know. I completely feel Brad’s pain here, but the fact that Vera and Z-Wave works for the most part and that it has MCV backing it (as best they can) makes it more tolerable than LMCE. LMCE is user developed and supported, with little to no compensation (donations welcome), and as a result there are few drivers out there for components. My main complaint was that nobody was posting their succesful PC setup on the forums. I thought, “just tell me what to buy, I’ll get it all from Newegg and be done with it.” There were different brand choices and different availabilities of the components, so nobody was seeing the logic with posting known working configurations and any extra steps needed to make it work. It must have been hard to publish the supported components as things were constantly evolving.

I can relate my experience with LMCE to my experience with Z-Wave. It sounds fantastic and magical in concept, and Vera does to, but the hidden ingredient to success is patience. What anybody lacks in skill, luck, or knowledge can usually be supplemented with patience. By patience, I don’t mean just waiting, but waiting and working toward a solution. I have a Love/Hate relationship with Vera and Z-Wave, (and anything else containing electronics), but given my alternatives and my budget…its all I’ve got, lol. MCV has a challenging goal to support any Z-Wave device and I feel like they’ve been good about doing so. There are a lot of crap devices out there, I believe Intermatic makes a lot of them (you get what you pay for), and Z-Wave has its bugs, so it seems like MCV is conquering a lot of this. The battle of the UI’s, however, is an area where they may have lost some ground with users and shifted needed resources away.

I think, in the spirit of helping ourselves, it might help new users and frustrated users if we posted our known working setups, device brands and model #'s, any lua code specific to that set-up, tricks and placement advice, firmware versions and then update our information as we add or subtract devices from the known working setup. That way we have benchmark setups to compare our problem systems against or we could copy a working system and be closer to Nirvana than if we were to start blindly buying devices. To expect everyone to have an independent knowledge of everything Lua and Vera, know the quirks of Z-Wave, and be able to setup and troubleshoot the myriad of device combinations is expecting too much. Vera and Z-Wave are both constantly evolving too, but I think it would be beneficial to document a few bulletproof user set-ups on a single page on the Wiki (easy to find and follow) and maybe those users would be willing to respond to questions. Also, a warning that deviating from this known working setup is done at the risk of your marriage and sanity.

(doesn’t Journey have a song called “Lights”? … “When the lights go down in the city, your scene controller is on the fritz.”, that doesn’t rhyme but it goes something like that) :slight_smile:

How many song titles from the Top 8 are appropriate:

http://80music.about.com/od/artistsfj/tp/topjourneysongs.htm

:slight_smile:

Shady, I totally agree with the “you get what you pay for” strategy. The thing is, when I first started this venture, the Intermatic hardware was not on bargain basement clearance like it is now. I paid full price for it all, and it certainly wasn’t the cheapest out there. Then, somewhere along the way, Intermatic (and Logitech and several others) have decided that the Z-Wave portion of their business is not viable and that the customers are too problematic and demanding and they decide to get out of the business…leaving me (and many others) with nothing more than a little project to tinker with from time to time. (And it remains just that, because you can no longer find new components to replace old ones or add new functionality.)

I’m really anxious to see how Schlage and Kwikset/BD hold up with the support sections of their individual systems. Schlage sure has been running an aggressive ad campaign. It’s the first Z-Wave campaign I have seen on mainstream media outlets. My Trane/Schlage thermostat has been very solid and was a super-easy integration into the system. (I presume because they followed the set parameters of the Z-Wave protocol.) But, there’s my point again…not even all of the big-name companies are playing by the rules. I found this out the first time when I tried to program more than 23 modules to my original Harmony 890 setup. (Logitech obviously did not follow Z-Wave standards because you’re supposed to be able to have up to 232 modules or something like that in a single network.) Most recently, I was in line to buy one of the new Kwikset Powerbolts (because I currently use one without Z-Wave functionality) and thought it might provide some solutions to the scene triggers that are missing by not having simple “and” statements in the current versions of the Vera UI. But there I would be again, buying more hardware to try and make existing advertised functionalities work. Where does it end?

Why do companies like MCV advertise functionality like IR control and simple Energy Monitoring and the like as fully functional right out of the box before they even have them up and running? Several of these things I see in the WIKI have been there in excess of two years and still aren’t up and going. By the time users get the lighting portion alone stabilized and decide to try and take full advantage of the “home automation” portions of the system, they dig in the WIKI and in these forums only to find out that those things never have been fully implemented and most likely are not going to be implemented anytime soon because all of the developers are working on this massive UI project that is now how far behind in schedule?

Look at companies like Square Connect. They have been advertising downloads of MIOS on their website since it went up…and six months later still are unable to provide it, because they too are waiting on MCV developers. “The MiOS software is not yet available. We are working hard to get this available for you. Please check back soon.” So, what happens if a customer who has never heard of Vera comes along in iTunes, decides this sounds like a pretty neat thing to be able to control their whole house with the iPhone/touch/iPad only to find out that the software to set it all up still isn’t available? Now you have not only end users but even another developer hijacked by the promise of UI software that still isn’t released.