First of all I am not trying to defect (not yet anyway) but in order to have apples to apples comparision I had to download this trial version from homeseer.
Goal: A simple combination of conditions to have the event triggered (not looking for piece of Art although it does sseem that way)
I raised this before and I was shown the path of learning Lua and write a script and I really object (and resent) to that line of solution as there was no such condition when I bought this box even in the fine print - or did I miss something.
Please look at the pictures below and see how simply the conditions are defined and working together to achieve nice automaton without even touching a remote or a switch. Surprisingly it works.
My Question: When can “we” the Vera user community have something like this as a STABLE and WORKING solution. Is this on a road map and if it is what is the priority specifically compared to new UI. And yes I did call for support but I was told that everyone was busy and expect a call back - so after 3.5 “Business Days” I am still holding my breath.
Is it “really” too much to ask for a basic functionality along with a right support with respectable turn-around time, not to mention that most of your user community is on beta that is being proposed as an “OFFICIAL Solution” to most of the problems?
Please comment.
PS: " Dont take me wrong I would like Vera to be better (and the best) than anything available in the market but I am personally losing hope."
Yeah, I’m kind-of in the same boat as you. I’m a software developer, so I don’t really have a problem with writing Lua scripts, but I should really only have to resort to that for complex scenarios. Basic stuff like the scenes in your screenshot should not require custom scripting. And even if you are willing to write scripts, many basic features in the Luup API are broken right now, which makes some tasks simply impossible.
All the marketing materials for Vera give the impression that anybody can use it, but that’s clearly not the case. There is definitely an above-average amount of technical skill required to use Vera for all but the most basic of tasks. At this point, I would not recommend it to any of my non-techie friends or family members.
Having said all that, I still love the idea of Vera, and I sincerely hope that MCV will address these issues, because I honestly want to see Vera succeed. I really think they have the potential to take over the market - even supplanting long-standing leaders like HomeSeer - if they just focus more on quality, stability, and user-friendliness.
one of the reviews on amazon summed it up nicely. the guy wrote he asks himself one simple question- ‘could i give this to my parents and they would just know what to do?’
the answer with vera currently is a big fat NO.
can you imainge the calls we would get from our parents?
Dad- “Mike, I just want all the lights outside to turn on at night if the motion sensor by the front door sees movement. How do I do that?”
Me- “Well dad, you need to learn about lua.”
Dad- “who the hell is lou? just tell me what i need to know”
me-" well see lua is part of the luup framework"
Dad" you’re friggin loopy- nevermind frames- i need the lights to go on"
me’ “sorry but you need to learn this programming language called lua. That’s L, U, A. You need to write a little mini program to do such complex things”
Dad"complex? are you out of your mind? turn on the lights in the dark when there is motion? that’s not complex! I bought a fixture at the channel home center in 1975 that did that and i didn’t need some stupid 300 dollar computer to do it. this isn’t rocket science."
Me- “I know dad- I’ll be over tomorrow to handle it”
This subject comes up time and time again, and for some reason, frustration I guess, I always post a contribution. Well, why not one more time…
Yes, simple combinational logic for events and conditions would be all that most of us need to make Vera a powerful and useful tool (and also one heck of a lot of fun as a hobby). It looks like it is not gonna happen. Now don’t anyone take this wrong, but the people driving the bus (including this forum) seem to love the idea that you must write code in a cryptic language, with lots of terms that mean nothing to most of us, to do even the simplest tasks involving decisions. For some of us who have tried learning Lua, it is simply not worth it. We did not sign up for this trip to become programmers. We like (and sometimes even benefit from) having a home automation system but that’s all. We don’t need another vocation. Maybe someday Vera will do what we want. The shame is, it seems like it would be a simple addition to have pull-down, logical operators and variables to create simple macro conditional logic commands.
Forgive my ranting, it is late, and I’m a bit frustrated…
Anthony
As a software engineer, I can tell you that writing a predicate builder while not rocket science is not a trivial thing. Additionally, in order do it properly one needs to take into account all the complex combinations of conditions that might come up. Even once you have that the “Dad” in the earlier post would not know how to use it. If they just implemented the ability to AND together events, that might help but then there would be a deluge of comments complaining that there isn’t a way to OR, and then that it doesn’t support grouping, etc.
So, I’m not excusing MCV for not providing a predicate builder, but I understand why they haven’t provided one yet. My hope is that they are still working on it (the so called web based Luup Generator from the wiki pages) and are just waiting until it is done properly.
forgive me but why the hell they are working on beauty pageant contest for new UI before fixing the “basic” stuff. A good simple functional (consider google) Vera can gain word of mouth publicity (strongest selling method in the history - a proven way) as oppose to getting bad name (amazon for one with millions of users, I am yet to add one). Why can’t they fix the documentation, a nice official way to guide step by step – an official WORD (reduces support calls by 90% - another proven method and history speaks for it). Why they ship EURO dongles and EU power supplies (I have the euro converted power supply) just to frustrate the user to add extra shipping cost and above all time - priceless. and I can go on and on…
Think about it for a second….
We the users, are practically living off of “lights on at sunset and off at sunrise” period, as for everything else you have Luaa that too on a beta as we (MCV) are too busy to develop the next beauty pageant for Miss World – “The most beautiful UI in the world” alas it does not have much functionality. Even the Schlage stopped sending me alerts .
As Michaelk mentioned this is not 1970 anymore. I am sure MCV will fix it but can they take the damage caused by frustration, defecting loyal customer base and bad publicity OR are we all unpaid lab rats testing the beta before actually Vera is stable – few year?
again forgive me - it’s just the frustration (possibly some scotch) and not intended for you - just for the genius who made these decisions and not answering to this thread.
I think i read on the wiki somewhere that there was going to be a web based LUA script generator which i’m not sure if that means it would be in the vera GUI or outside on the MCV website?
I bought my Vera from Amazon too and will hold judgement for a while before i post there. I’m not complaining too much at the moment as its fun learning something new and if it was too easy then i’d probably be goofing off playing on the PC, Xbox, TV or some other time wasting mindless distraction
Plenty to learn if thats your goal. For lots of us this needs to be “PARENT READY” and is in the interest of MCV as well case they want to be next Cisco of Z-Wave (or even a netgear of Z-Wave). Peronally I would prefer MCV to be Cisco - Amen
[quote=“Anthony420, post:6, topic:165516”]This subject comes up time and time again, and for some reason, frustration I guess, I always post a contribution. Well, why not one more time…
Yes, simple combinational logic for events and conditions would be all that most of us need to make Vera a powerful and useful tool (and also one heck of a lot of fun as a hobby). It looks like it is not gonna happen. Now don’t anyone take this wrong, but the people driving the bus (including this forum) seem to love the idea that you must write code in a cryptic language, with lots of terms that mean nothing to most of us, to do even the simplest tasks involving decisions. For some of us who have tried learning Lua, it is simply not worth it. We did not sign up for this trip to become programmers. We like (and sometimes even benefit from) having a home automation system but that’s all. We don’t need another vocation. Maybe someday Vera will do what we want. The shame is, it seems like it would be a simple addition to have pull-down, logical operators and variables to create simple macro conditional logic commands.
Forgive my ranting, it is late, and I’m a bit frustrated…
Anthony[/quote]
I started a thread with High praise about the new GUI seen at CES. After using and seeing it work from a real PC with a realistic network I see the target was missed.
I feel since the beginning we have traded one Alpha project for another. Like so many others we want a simple UI, a simple setup. out of the ordinary advanced features for the tech savy but not in a way that affects the user experience. I really don’t see how MCV can speed up the UI and continue to use flash. Runing MIOS in a regular PC is a lot different than running it on a router and accessing from a pc. Maybe the’ll suprise us all. Hopefully there will still be an audience around to use it.
I agree that their current conditional options are very limited.
I also agree with mikeholczer that a predicate builder (which I believe is related more to searches/queries, but a similar concept) can be quite a project.
But there is no reason that we can’t have a simple conditional builder that just handles two conditions: time of day and motion and/or device status. This should be attainable, all we are asking for is something a little more than what we have and not every possible comibination of data from every sensor/device.
Or at the very least, start up a code collaboration site for all of the current Luup code and plug-ins (something in discussion that should be implemented pronto).
can you imainge the calls we would get from our parents?
Dad- “Mike, I just want all the lights outside to turn on at night if the motion sensor by the front door sees movement. How do I do that?”
Me- “Well dad, you need to learn about lua.”
Dad- “who the hell is lou? just tell me what i need to know”
me-" well see lua is part of the luup framework"
Dad" you’re friggin loopy- nevermind frames- i need the lights to go on"
me’ “sorry but you need to learn this programming language called lua. That’s L, U, A. You need to write a little mini program to do such complex things”
Dad"complex? are you out of your mind? turn on the lights in the dark when there is motion? that’s not complex! I bought a fixture at the channel home center in 1975 that did that and i didn’t need some stupid 300 dollar computer to do it. this isn’t rocket science."
Me- “I know dad- I’ll be over tomorrow to handle it”
[quote=“mikeholczer, post:7, topic:165516”]As a software engineer, I can tell you that writing a predicate builder while not rocket science is not a trivial thing. Additionally, in order do it properly one needs to take into account all the complex combinations of conditions that might come up. Even once you have that the “Dad” in the earlier post would not know how to use it. If they just implemented the ability to AND together events, that might help but then there would be a deluge of comments complaining that there isn’t a way to OR, and then that it doesn’t support grouping, etc.
So, I’m not excusing MCV for not providing a predicate builder, but I understand why they haven’t provided one yet. My hope is that they are still working on it (the so called web based Luup Generator from the wiki pages) and are just waiting until it is done properly.[/quote]
I’ll be the first to say that I AM NOT a programmer- hence my frustration with needing to learn Lua. IN general I cant say enough positive for the folks that do it, I’m always point out to my wife “look at what these people put together”. So I get that it probably is NOT trivial to do. But I’d prioritize something like this that I would consider a functional foundation before I’d work on some new pretty new UI. And I guess that’s my own personal beef. Clearly UI3 is a hugely different animal that has taken some serious effort to put together. I would have preferred they put that off a month or 2 to work on some simple conditional logic for scenes. And from the various posts on the forum I’m not alone. Beyond that I think those of us who have trouble with Lua are more the mainstream and I think in general one has to cater to the mainstream to sell more units rather then the subset of folks that code like it’s their second language.
On designing a UI and logic- I wouldn’t doubt for a minute that it’s tough. If you read my posts I have made suggestions about what I think doesn’t work in the new UI and then stated some thoughts I’ve had to make it better. But I always say that I’m not a UI designer so maybe there are better ways to address the issue I have pointed out. But the CE devices that take new technologies to the main stream always have a UI that “my dad” could operate. See TiVo- See iPod.
It’s been a while since I played with homeseer but the screen shot above looks like even “my dad” could figure it out. And honestly not sure why OR is a big deal- the UI today has OR all anyone could want. You can put in 100 timers or 100 events and they all behave as OR. (maybe exaggerating- never tried 100…)
You are probably right, we have OR and we complain we want AND. So if we had AND also we’d probably want the “grouping” or something else you are talking about. But spending some time to figure out the foundational logical operating of the thing goes a long way to keep you from having to retool all that. It becomes that much more difficult to add something that complex into the fancy new UI after the fact rather than having it there from the start.
I love Vera. AND I abandoned homesser and later came to vera (largely because HS WAS too complex itself and not ready for “my dad”) so MCV/MIOS must be on the right track. But honestly I can’t see how they let “and” wallow when the competition has it, people are fumbling regularly on the forum trying to figure out code or whatnot to make it work, and people take the time to ask for it repeatedly.
@MichaelK: You realize you said that Homeseer UI was simple and something your dad could figure out and that it was too complex and not something you dad could figure out in the same post?
I understand that is seem like what is being asked for is simple, but I have tried to implement it and it is very difficult to do and present it in a way that an average user can figure out. Creating the particular logic that one might want in a specific case can be trivial, so I would suggest that those that need some help with lua ask fellow forum members for help. Like this post: http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php?topic=3152.msg13567#msg13567.
[quote=“mikeholczer, post:15, topic:165516”]@MichaelK: You realize you said that Homeseer UI was simple and something your dad could figure out and that it was too complex and not something you dad could figure out in the same post?
I understand that is seem like what is being asked for is simple, but I have tried to implement it and it is very difficult to do and present it in a way that an average user can figure out. Creating the particular logic that one might want in a specific case can be trivial, so I would suggest that those that need some help with lua ask fellow forum members for help. Like this post: http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php?topic=3152.msg13567#msg13567.[/quote]
laughing- good point. But actually homeseers base UI was simple- it was the setup that was awful. You had to add in a million plug ins. I never could get a mobile phone plug in to work (it was years ago)- so half the merit of a system was lost on me.
I guess I could stop trying to understand lua and just ask people to write code for me. But the reasonable interim would be the web based lua code writer that is mentioned in the wiki.
Agreeing with the above postings, why can’t MCV incorporate a series of “Pull-down” menus that offer a variety of scenarios for the user?
Without listing all possible examples look at a copy of Active Home Pro for those X-10 devices. The program had the right idea offering the user a pretty comprehensive selection of choices which were then translated into the machine readable code. Whether the lights turned on / off at the appropriate time were pretty much up to the individual devices to initiate.
The program also had some provision for the user to enter an individual script or to play a sound or fire an external device or event if conditions were met.
I think the Vera users are definitely looking for the ability to do more customization without having to take a course in programming!
Come on MCV, you have a great product! Who cares what the UI looks like…give us some functionality and the ability to customize our own unique settings.
Sorry for the rant…I came here because I simply got tired of those blinking little red lights!!
As UI4 under the new architect has been decided to be the next project while MCV may keep on workingon UI3, so it seems the back-end engine may not get ample priority and focus. Additionally due to lack of any comment(s) from MCV I have no choice but to assume that fixing “simple logic” issue may not be in the road path and/or clearly not a priority.
These are my assumptions and I really hope I am wrong.
I will appreciate if someone from MCV can help us see some light on the road map for back-end engine with possible ETA for a solution so that people with lack of resources (skill and/or time) to get into Lua game can plan accordingly. Looking fwd to a honest answer…
Believe it or not, this is not a back-end issue. The simplest way to achieve this kind of functionality would be with a code generator. Lua is a wonderfully regular and efficient language, so the only hard (really hard!) part is the UI that allows things that we haven’t thought yet. After all, if it can do only what we’ve previously thought about, it would be easier to just write the code ourselves!
About plans for the backend, the main issues include:
[ul][li]more options to communicate with devices[/li]
[li]better Internet capabilities (to talk with webservices, XML and maybe JSON…)[/li]
[li]enhancements to the Lua API[/li]
[li]always trying to make it faster and leaner[/li]
[li]and of course, bugfixes[/li][/ul]
I would like to see a code generator as powerful as the “Programs” tab in the ISY-99i, screenshot here… doesn’t do the program builder much justice, but it can easily make 99% of the conditional scenes you would want to set up.
