polling, instant status, device updates, quick scenes?

I started my foray into home automation with homeseer (moved to vera as it was “simplier”…) and I learned from them that at the time the ACT devices didn’t need to be polled because they had used device associations so that whenever they were turned on or off they notified the controller. So if you turn an older model ACT device on or off it instantly tells vera and vera can trigger a scene right then and there. That was one of the reasons I bought ACT switches.

Other brands never implemented this. Turns out there was some patent issue (lutron patented instant RF communication apparently) that precludes instant notification like that and so no one else did that. Looks like ACT got spanked and now newer versions of ACT devices removed this functionality. It seems the more expensive switches as a work around use some sort of scene functionality.

In my house I have a few instances where I need (well want) instant status. For example I have a couple spots where a light switch controls it’s local load while at the same time also controls a wall wart. Turn the switch on or off and both the local and remote load turn on or off in unison.

forgetting about this, I installed a new switch in the bedroom- local load is the lamp on my dresser and accross the room is a lamp controlled by a wallwart on my wifes dresser. Net result is I hit the switch and my light turns on/off instanlty but my wifes light may or may not turn on quickly. Is there a workaround for this or is it just the way it is?

I changed polling to every 10 seconds for that switch in the hopes to make it closer to real time, but i remember reading someplace not to poll nonstop as it screws up the network.

Is it OK for just that one switch to poll every second?

How does it work if I buy one of the 'fancy" switches like a cooper (maybe leviton?) that can scene control, does it get taught a scene to control the local load and the remote load at exactly the same time with the single button press on/off?

What about locks- I’m about to add a schlage lock and I was hoping to be able to use to to instantly turn on lights as soon as a code was entered. How do locks work? I know I can’t poll them non-stop the batteries will die. I think MAYBE I read the lutron patent that blocked ACT only applies to light switched so maybe the locks do in fact still do instant status?

What’s everyone doing else doing to make scenes happen instantly (besides waiting for lutrons patent to expire ;D )?

What about locks- I’m about to add a schlage lock and I was hoping to be able to use to to instantly turn on lights as soon as a code was entered. How do locks work? I know I can’t poll them non-stop the batteries will die. I think MAYBE I read the lutron patent that blocked ACT only applies to light switched so maybe the locks do in fact still do instant status?

What’s everyone doing else doing to make scenes happen instantly (besides waiting for lutrons patent to expire ;D )?

[/quote]

i had a deadbolt kwikset lock installed about 2 weeks ago. i created a scene so that when my wife and my 3 grown up kids entered their assigned pin code outside the house, as soon as they open the door, the living room light will turn on and i get text messages everytime they entered the house. the text message includes their names and pin codes. i also set it up so that i get a text message whenever a wrong pin code is punched. the problem is i dont know how to modify the scene so that the light will NOT turn on during the day. i dont know the answer to your question about non stop polling. but in order to conserve battery, i turned off the auto relock feature; i also turned off the blinking light every 5 secs. the 4 aa batteries should last for about a year.

@renato

Split your scene into two scenes: one for the living room light, one for the rest.

Add

return not luup.is_night()

to the Luup tab of the scene which controls the living room light.

Recommended reading:
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Luup_Scenes_Events
http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Luup_Lua_extensions

@michaelk,

You are correct about the Lutron patent with the ACT switches, they do not support the HAIL command which would update Vera of the local state change. Changing the poll rate will have no affect and may make the delay worse.
I have exactly the same setup as you, the switch controls my bed side lamp’s load directly, I have a scene that acts on my lamp turning on which then turns my wife’s bed side lamp on. Another scene to monitor the off command. Always had a delay with this setup.
This weekend I re-flashed my Vera 2 and am in the process of setting up the scenes again. This was the first scene I set up and it worked instantly, both on and off. I addd a few more scenes and now back with the delay.
Have you tried a direct association of the switch to the plug in module? I will try this my self when I am done adding all my scenes. Unless someone posts a fix…

JOD.

How do you setup direct associations? I’m searching but not having much luck.

Thanks!

[quote=“JOD, post:4, topic:166845”]@michaelk,

You are correct about the Lutron patent with the ACT switches, they do not support the HAIL command which would update Vera of the local state change. Changing the poll rate will have no affect and may make the delay worse.
I have exactly the same setup as you, the switch controls my bed side lamp’s load directly, I have a scene that acts on my lamp turning on which then turns my wife’s bed side lamp on. Another scene to monitor the off command. Always had a delay with this setup.
This weekend I re-flashed my Vera 2 and am in the process of setting up the scenes again. This was the first scene I set up and it worked instantly, both on and off. I addd a few more scenes and now back with the delay.
Have you tried a direct association of the switch to the plug in module? I will try this my self when I am done adding all my scenes. Unless someone posts a fix…

JOD.[/quote]

I could do direct associations- but since they removed group 1- a single tap wont associate. I’d need to set the ‘slave’ to a double tap (or triple).

So I’d have to tell my wife when she walks in the room to tap once, hold, tap twice. I’m thinking there’d be some choice words- laughing.

what’s the “HAIL” command? Is that something included in the “fancier” switches that allows instant status?

If I get one of the leviton or cooper switches- can they use some sort of scene logic in them to be instant on- anyone know?

[quote=“FIST, post:5, topic:166845”]How do you setup direct associations? I’m searching but not having much luck.

Thanks![/quote]

only some devices allow it.

On the ACT switches - you can set other z-wave items to “group 2” or “group 3”- if you tap the switch twice then it will turn on group 2. Tap 3 times you get group 3. (they used to allow stuff in “group 1” but they had to change the firmware due to the patent issue.)

to add groups- on the switches “device options” tab- at the bottom you’ll see associations. Then a box to add a group. Add group 2 or 3. Then it will ask you which devices to add to each group (there’s a limit of I think 3 or 4 devices). Remember to save all along at each step.

Once you set the associations- the vera could die because the devices work it out between themselves- vera is not involved at all. (so it’s rock solid and fast).

Intermatic switches DONT allow associations to my knowledge. GE/Jasco/Schlage are like private label of act so they probably have what the ACT’s do.

No idea about leviton and cooper- I’m trying to learn what they do myself.

(some sensor type devices- like motion sensors- also allow direct association)

For anyone else that stumbles on this thread-

I put my schlage lock in today. And the few times it’s triggered a scene it seems pretty quick. Not exactly instant but not a nasty delay either.

[quote=“michaelk, post:7, topic:166845”][quote=“FIST, post:5, topic:166845”]How do you setup direct associations? I’m searching but not having much luck.

Thanks![/quote]

only some devices allow it.

No idea about leviton and cooper- I’m trying to learn what they do myself.

(some sensor type devices- like motion sensors- also allow direct association)[/quote]

Thank you, I’m not sure I did it correctly, but it works (for now) with my Aeon Labs door sensor and my leviton switch (I have two closets with the same setup and they’re both working).

I think I added the leviton switch to the Aeon Labs door sensor (made the association), then I also added the direct association into Vera (is this required?). Neither the Aeon Labs door sensor or the Leviton switch told me which “group” to use so I just made one up. Interestingly enough, after I save the information in Vera it says “Failed at: setting user association” for both of my door sensors, but it obviously worked because the sensor turns on the light immediately (as opposed to the 2 - 3 second wait when I had them setup as scenes).

Did I “double associate” here? If I recall, I wasn’t able to get the light to turn on after associating the switch with the sensor until AFTER I set it up in Vera to do the same thing…

do you mean that you set up the association using some directions from aeon and not using the vera UI?

It’s my understanding that Cooper and some Leviton devices do not transmit associated commands either, but they do support the HAIL Command Class which sends a command to a special association group as a sort of work around of the Lutron patent??.

I think most (maybe all) security devices like the Schlage lock and HRDS1’s also support HAIL which is how you can have that device control other devices in scenes. Sensor tripped, light turns on…
Maybe its most battery devices, I’m not 100% sure…
It’s also my understanding that ACT re-worked their devices to not support group 1 or HAIL for fear of being sued by Lutron…

Maybe the programmers can comment on this topic…

JOD.

[quote=“michaelk, post:8, topic:166845”]For anyone else that stumbles on this thread-

I put my schlage lock in today. And the few times it’s triggered a scene it seems pretty quick. Not exactly instant but not a nasty delay either.[/quote]

Sometimes the Scene fires up really fast, sometimes it takes up to 10-30 seconds, sometimes not all.
This pissed me off for some time but like all the nagging issues with Vera I’ve learned to live with it for now.

A co-worker mentioned something about a very small window of time that the Schlage has to authenticate as the culprit to my scene failures.

I did (or at least tried to) based on the Aeon Labs user manual… but I also set it up in the Vera UI. Ignore my previous post… Sorry!

Thanks

[quote=“tt55du, post:12, topic:166845”][quote=“michaelk, post:8, topic:166845”]For anyone else that stumbles on this thread-

I put my schlage lock in today. And the few times it’s triggered a scene it seems pretty quick. Not exactly instant but not a nasty delay either.[/quote]

Sometimes the Scene fires up really fast, sometimes it takes up to 10-30 seconds, sometimes not all.
This pissed me off for some time but like all the nagging issues with Vera I’ve learned to live with it for now.

A co-worker mentioned something about a very small window of time that the Schlage has to authenticate as the culprit to my scene failures.[/quote]

I haven’t seen 10-30 seconds but sometimes there’s a noticable delay for me too- I’m starting to think it’s something to do with this whole lutron patented what we need nonsense so vera has to get around to polling- but I’m in no way certain.

as far as what the hec “HAIL” does - here’s all I could find:

Note that while the Cooper and some Leviton devices do not transmit associated commands when they receive a Z-Wave command, they also support the HAIL class, and so when they receive a Z-Wave command that changes their state, they can send a HAIL command to node(s) associated in a special association group. HomeSeer uses this to then immediately query the device for its current level so that events can be immediately triggered.
source: http://www.homeseer.com/wiki/index.php/ZWave No idea if pressing the local button couldn't as "receive a z-wave command"

I read a few of the installation manuals for leviton switches and none get into using them to activate a scene with the local device or using associations of any kind. So I’m at a loss if they allow any type of instant updates to vera.

found some more info on HAIL and cooper at least. (got to love the homeseer forums and the actual support and participation their people actually have on their forums:

to boil it down.
the “instant status” group is group 1- that ACT used to include. When you hit the button on the switch it would send a message to the controler (eg vera) or any other devices in group 1 to say “hey this is device X and I just got turned on(or off)”

Lutron made a mess and everyone had to stop that.

“HAIL” was invented.
A group 255 was added. When you hit a button on the switch it sent a message to the controller or any devices in group 255 to say “hey this is deivce X and I did something”
Vera SHOULD then receive the message and then instantly poll device X to find out what the something was that it just did.
(HAIL does NOT notify upon receiving an rf command- if it did you could mistakenly set up an infinite loop)

Cooper’s original devices only did HAIL with group 255.
Cooper made nice with lutron and paid licensing fees and then included HAIL at group 255 so then started including group 1 for instant status.
Still later Cooper has given up on HAIL and the latest firmware doesn’t even support HAIL and group 255 but only has Group 1 with instant status.

leviton does something but i can’t tell if it’s using group 1 (instant status) or group 255(Hail)- anyone know?

and BTW- anyone know hot to tell if Vera is associated with group 1 for sure? I added group 1 to one of my act switches that i know supports it and hit view and it doesn’t show anything as checked. Could just be the UI doesn’t show it, but who knows…

Thats good information…
The Lutron patent only applies to devices transmitting in group 1.
I believe all devices that would respond to a command support listening / responding to group 1.

JOD.

@michaelk,
I’ve found a work around.
My ACT switches do not support Group 1 or Hail but I have a scene setup that works sometimes and other times slowly.
However, using Think Essentials, I was able to assign a group 1 association with another ACT device that now responds instantly with the local button push AND updates the UI in less than a second.

JOD.

[quote=“JOD, post:18, topic:166845”]@michaelk,
I’ve found a work around.
My ACT switches do not support Group 1 or Hail but I have a scene setup that works sometimes and other times slowly.
However, using Think Essentials, I was able to assign a group 1 association with another ACT device that now responds instantly with the local button push AND updates the UI in less than a second.

JOD.[/quote]

hmmm- off to go buy think essentials…

JOD, can you give more detail about the ThinkEssentials work around you found?

Are your ACT switches the new kind (version 2) or the old kind?

Also, if you do your configuration with ThinkEssentials, do you still have the node configured with Vera or will that undo your setting?

-ZMaF