New too home automation plan on doing a large security/camera setup.

Other Devices & Integrations Door Locks & Sensors
1

Have a buisness with a 8,500 square foot layout, 7 entrances and a few other things to monitor. Need some options here and have some questions about all of this.

I have noticed the few wireless IP cameras I have used have all dropped connection at one point and seem pretty useless when it comes to being reliable especially in a business setup with large square footage. Now is the only way to watch cams by using IP Cameras or is there a way to watch cams that are connected too let say a DVR from night owl or something.

Or is it more cost effective to keep them completely separate.

I would like to use a micasaverde for the security aspect as far as door sensors when a door is opened or closed. I really like the option of being instantly alerted by txt of a door being opened lets say late at night. I do not want too use one of those pay monthly services. By the time the police actually get there its too late. I rather be able to get an alert then look at the cameras then make the call at that point.

Not looking to spend a arm and a leg either looking too do this asap this seemed the best route and seems too be a lot of knowledge here!

Thank you folks!
Josh

2

Do a business I would suggest buying hard wired cams, not IP Cams. Traditional cams are MUCH less expensive and higher quality - unless you buy very expensive IP cams. The price of the traditional system + installation by a professional would equal about the same cost as just the IP cams themselves.

3

I would use IP cams and an NVR. Not wireless. Look at Axis IP cams.
IP cams are much better quality in both pic and function than hardwired. Much more cost effective as well in both installation and operation.

Yes you can spend $$$ on a 5 megapixel IP cam, but that one cam can cover the same area of 5 conventional cams, so actually it is cheaper.
The NVR will give you loads of options for cam control and alert functions. Coupled with a hardwired security panel AND a Vera, you got bullet proof protection.

Don’y scrimp on the screamers!

4

I think tradition hardwire is the way too go for this setup as far as price wise. Might throw in a IP cam for the front door or something so it will have PTZ. What is a good multi cam iphone app?

Thank you for the info everyone! Looking forward too this setup!

5

Take a look at technology like Vivotek. It’s security grade camera stuff. They and other companies now have Fisheye cameras, where you can break the camera up into many different virtual views from a single 360 degree camera feed. This means large office areas can be completely covered by a single camera, or maybe a couple. Use Power over Ethernet injectors/switches, a computer like a Synology, QNAP, or a PC with Blue Iris etc to do the recording, and maybe a UPS to do intelligent power monitoring. All you need to do is some networking, and fishing of cat5e cables. That and messing around with the server/client software for both the cameras and the computer systems. This way you can also expose the cameras to Vera. Fisheye cameras in particular will look distorted in Vera, but the Vera does a decent job at integrating many cameras. You can have Vera take photos and the like when other things are triggered, but the communication doesn’t go both ways. Only a few consumer level WiFi cameras can trigger the Vera. Still, you get redundant computer feature sets going this route, and you can rig a do it yourself alarm system to cause camera feed to push to whomever. (Many conventional alarm systems actually integrate into Vera quite handsomely if one already exists in this office)

Proprietary security grade camera stuff exists that will do the job very well, but often you won’t get to integrate with Vera. Most of these NVR systems have PoE out, which isn’t on the same subnet as the rest of the network. That rules the Vera out. Keep the PoE cameras on the main subnet.

Consumer level cameras can work, but WiFi is tricky to get reliable for a true surveillance system. Investing in decent wireless access points and placing them strategically is the only way to guarantee signal sometimes, and doesn’t solve all the problems. Some basic consumer grade cameras support PoE, adding a bit to work, cost, and reliability and might represent the best compromise for your needs on the camera front, if you don’t need recording.

The Vera is good for small scale do it yourself security in a pinch, but isn’t always ideal for large situations. Z-Wave sensors aren’t quite the same as security grade wired or wireless contacts tied to a security panel. Professional monitoring will likely pay for itself if you ask your insurance company. They are often willing to give a discount on the office’s insurance policy due to it being monitored. Depending on who you sign with, this can actually pay for the alarm monitoring to begin with. If you end up talking to an alarm system tech, you ought to ask about a DSC PC1832, with an Envisalink 3DS IP transmitter for alarm monitoring and Vera integration, and a UPS to back up the LAN. This way you don’t need a conventional phone line to monitor it, saving big time on monthly fees. Just be careful that you read what you sign, and tell them not to lock the board. Locking a board prohibits it from being factory defaulted.

You shouldn’t count on consumer level gear for securing a large business. You can’t really afford too much failure if liabilities are in play. Battery and range issues with Z-Wave can be annoying if not handled properly. Consumer grade WiFi cameras flake out for similar reasons. Neither of these approaches functions well, or at all in a power outage. As such, go with redundancy and be prepared to monitor and maintain it, or go with a professional. Automation systems such as the Vera are best suited to residential situations. Their feature sets are superior to non monitored alarm systems, but the quality of parts and alarm response are inferior to monitored alarm systems.

Professional alarm systems are only worth it if you have it monitored with it’s included monthly fee, unfortunately. Their wired or wireless sensors are better quality and work just as well as Z-Wave sensors once integrated with Vera. You also get better arming mode options this way. Having a call center to back you up will take some of the weight off your shoulders. Notifications from stuff like the Envisalink or the Vera are much more feature rich, but rely very much on the people in question.

Professional camera systems are very expensive, but highly reliable as standalone machines. They do not come with monthly fees. They come with live feed (phone apps, PCs), recording options, and notification options.

Being a security technician in the profession, I’d suggest that having a monitored alarm is advisable for almost any commercial situation. However once relying on that, you don’t need to go to a great expense on the cameras unless employees are a concern, or the public visits constantly. Automation at that point would be cream on top of the cake.

6

Very informative answer. It’s nice to see someone take the time to produce such a rant :smiley: - thanks for that.

I would like to hear what you think the number of pixels should be for a security camera. Tell us more about the fish eye systems. Is PTZ worthwhile, is HD worthwhile and what about infrared LED lighting at night - or normal LED floodlights on an alarm trigger. And what about the recorders - do you like the QNAP boxes? Also software - eg marked out sensitive areas in the field of view that can create alarm triggers (actual closed contacts). Have you ever encountered privacy problems, whereby people have objected to being monitored ie the neighbors of a domestic set up.

It seems to me that the video setup should be dedicated but it would be nice if Vera could report back as needed and interact with any alarms raised.

If I ask too much - fell free to ignore all questions - I’m just inquisitive by nature!!

7
Very informative answer. It's nice to see someone take the time to produce such a rant :D - thanks for that.
Oh my. A rant. I did it again. Shoot!
I would like to hear what you think the number of pixels should be for a security camera. Tell us more about the fish eye systems. Is PTZ worthwhile, is HD worthwhile and what about infrared LED lighting at night - or normal LED floodlights on an alarm trigger. And what about the recorders - do you like the QNAP boxes? Also software - eg marked out sensitive areas in the field of view that can create alarm triggers (actual closed contacts). Have you ever encountered privacy problems, whereby people have objected to being monitored ie the neighbors of a domestic set up.

To be honest, all concerns such as HD, megapixels, night-vision and all this should come down to the ability to identify a person who appears in the recording footage. If a trespasser, a suitor for one’s teenage daughter, or other unwanted ‘visitors’ appear, going back into the record to see ought to yield results. If the picture is too grainy, or the camera placement / concentration is bad, it isn’t done right. I know that’s kindof vague… but a tiny room doesn’t need a high resolution since it’s not viewing very much. Cameras that are capable of massive resolutions can often be set lower in software, to be easier on hard drive space. Think; “can I see a guy’s face and identify them”

PTZ is really nice. You seem to find it in either the high end cameras, or the bottom end consumer ones. Not a feature meant to be relied upon until software comes where the camera can automatically track people’s movement. For all I know, that exists already. The technology is moving too fast to follow. Until that day, it’s a live feed feature, and seems to work well. Any ONVIF capable camera ought to play nice with other systems, and those features exposed. Try the Foscam FI8918W for a cheapo that talks to Vera well. It’s one of only a few cameras that can actually trigger Vera action when it detects movement. This makes it ideal for people of this forum.

I’ve never worked with QNAP except to see it in passing. It looks every bit as good as Synology systems, or better even. These two systems are really NAS computers, but I prefer having the extra functionality in my NVR systems, such that I can do much more… such as a VPN server, far better logging, UPS monitoring, and other nifties. The main annoyance is you must pay Synology or QNAP their pound of flesh in that they charge for licenses per camera, to integrate. Highly unnecessary and greedy if you ask me. Beyond that, they make better NVRs than real NVRs! Edit: Synology and QNAP both produce actual dedicated NVR systems, but they are bloody expensive, even for the high end market!

Fisheye cameras are really amazing. You can cover a large area with one of these that otherwise might take a handful. On top of this, the higher end ones are even able to box motion, so that it’s easily identifiable to analytic routines. It can do cool stuff, like alarm when a foreign object is noticed, or when an expected object is missing. You can blank out areas such that only areas you want are susceptible to motion triggering. Really smart alarm/motion software. Check out this pic; This is all from one camera. They de-warped the image to create virtual cameras with it. Stellar! http://www.simplynvr.com/img/cms/synology-2.png

I don’t know if they’ve built a decent night-vision Fisheye yet. The trouble here is they’d need to put infrared lights all over the dome to get all angles correct. Seems like a technical challenge. I’m sure there are engineers working on that right now though. Otherwise, night-vision is here, and it’s quality in most security grade, and many consumer grade products.

On the privacy front, most cameras are in businesses. I always say the only ethical and proper way to go is to tell all staff that their actions are being recorded, and possibly occasionally monitored. This is only decent and fair. It also causes the camera system to act as proper deterrence against obscene or horrid behaviour. Letting them know is always best. On residential systems, most people going to the trouble to putting cameras outdoors probably have some massive place out in the middle of the country. If however cameras view an urban area, care should be taken to limit the motion sensing ability. Some cameras come with a privacy mask too, to blank out areas one doesn’t want recorded/viewed. Some might indeed see it as rude, if someone’s camera is viewing their home. I never run into it, but I could see it happen. I wouldn’t see it that way, as cameras viewing my home from another house might add to my own house’s security. A prowler might avoid the whole street in this circumstance.

It seems to me that the video setup should be dedicated but it would be nice if Vera could report back as needed and interact with any alarms raised.

Proper surveillance systems ought to be pretty dedicated for the sake of reliability. Exposure to Vera allows an alarm system to trigger picture or video push amongst other things. Still, a Vera is no substitute to either a real alarm system, or a real surveillance system. It’s candy glue that works between them, giving value added to both.

Oops. I just ranted again. :o

8

Huge thank you for the awesome reply! Ton of questions answered for me! Learned a lot in those 2 posts. I am a new installer and no means a pro. I have done a number of installs at business that wanted affordability using Night owl systems and a few other of the cheapo dvr stuff. All have worked great so far and the main goal was being able to identify faces. Seems to work well for what its intended for with out all the bells and whistles.

9

I agree - interesting reading. I had look at few youtube videos on the 5mp Vivotek 360deg fish eyes. The software is pretty impressive - not sure if they have a downside (beside the cost).

10

Thanks guys!

I’m glad it’s helpful.

In terms of downsides to Fisheye cameras… it’s hard to find one. If you consider that in some cases one fisheye can grant the same coverage that perhaps 4 or even more cameras can provide, the cost benefit of this situation favours the Fisheye quite a bit. The dewarping, virtual channels, landscape modes, and additional software they pack in make a difference. It’s a great leap in technology and ought to increase the efficacy and lower the cost of camera systems eventually. --The social implications of ubiquitous surveillance will only increase, which is also a bit disturbing.

The only downside I see is when you are trying to interface it with computers incapable of said dewarping. Stuff like the Vera. Not specialized for camera work, but capable of it. You get the fisheye mode and that’s it. Understandable. Still useful, but kind of awkward.

11

I’ve been messing around with Geovision fisheye cameras. Although clunky and poorly translated software, it’s feature rich. I don’t think it’s able to directly integrate into Vera, however there’s another way.

If you had an integrated alarm system, you could use an alarm zone for this purpose. These cameras come with a dry relay output, meaning it can tie directly into an alarm panel, and hence the automation system as well.

Then, you tell the camera to trip motion on certain activity, which causes the alarm zone to open, which can trigger whatever Vera scene you want. For example, man walks in the field of vision, lights turn on, and notifications go off.

I haven’t tested how reliable the motion detection software is, but it seems to be pretty reliable. If it stands to be very reliable, one could even program the alarm to treat it as a motion detector, and trigger alarms when armed. It certainly would reliably do scene control, as that’s far less serious.

Other higher end cameras such as Axis make similar cameras. Apparently these machines are even better, and come with a scripting language. This -ought- to mean the ability to send HTTP code directly to the Vera, executing scenes, or directly controlling particular devices.

Now to get my hand on more cameras for my test bench!

12

[quote=“Pestus, post:11, topic:177312”]I’ve been messing around with Geovision fisheye cameras. Although clunky and poorly translated software, it’s feature rich. I don’t think it’s able to directly integrate into Vera, however there’s another way.

If you had an integrated alarm system, you could use an alarm zone for this purpose. These cameras come with a dry relay output, meaning it can tie directly into an alarm panel, and hence the automation system as well.

Then, you tell the camera to trip motion on certain activity, which causes the alarm zone to open, which can trigger whatever Vera scene you want. For example, man walks in the field of vision, lights turn on, and notifications go off.

I haven’t tested how reliable the motion detection software is, but it seems to be pretty reliable. If it stands to be very reliable, one could even program the alarm to treat it as a motion detector, and trigger alarms when armed. It certainly would reliably do scene control, as that’s far less serious.

Other higher end cameras such as Axis make similar cameras. Apparently these machines are even better, and come with a scripting language. This -ought- to mean the ability to send HTTP code directly to the Vera, executing scenes, or directly controlling particular devices.

Now to get my hand on more cameras for my test bench![/quote]

Yup, you just need to have a separate partition on your panel that won’t put it into alarmed state on motion.

13

Yup, partition control would give you another lever.

I’m just using non-burglary zone definitions… ignored except for state monitoring.

This stuff is really fantastic though. Any time I walk into my utility room, the lights turn on for me. I use an inactivity counter to determine when to turn it off again.

Having fun!