Need help debugging problem please

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1

I am really puzzled by this one.

My z-wave network is pretty stable now, and I have set up scenes to do all the stuff I want. I also use two 45600 remotes as “backup” remotes when we can’t use the phone or iPad apps.

Here is the weirdness:

I have set scene button 8 ON on the remotes to trigger a scene called TV, which dims some lights. If I invoke the scene from the U15 panel, it runs fine. If I invoke it from my cell phone running Vera Mobile, it runs fine. BUT if I invoke it from either of the 45600’s, it works ok but ALSO turns off another lamp not in the TV scene at all.

So this happens only when I use the remotes, but why? I thought perhaps that the remotes are acting as secondary controllers although I didn’t program them to do that, and I press the remote Scene button first so it should run a scene, not directly controlling the light. And I am hitting the On side of the button, not off anyhow.

I have checked to see if any other scene is triggered by remote 8, and none are.

So anybody have any idea why the lamp is turning off only when I use the remote button? Got me scratchin’!

Thanks, Bob (beachboync)

2

Looking further at the 967 code used to set up the remote, it looks like it is used to create a new secondary or primary controller and copies the network from the primary controller. But this is in the context of two 45600 remotes. I am not sure what the situation would be for a 45600 with Vera.

So I am pursuing the idea that the 45600 has become a secondary controller, but this still doesn’t fit the situation, as it doesn’t answer why the device turns on with 7-On and off with 8-On, rather than button 7 or 8 on/off. Also why it occurs with the 45600 Scene button pressed, not Light.

This could be a deal breaker for me. I just wanted a remote to launch a few scene events - if I can’t control it fully it is of no use!

As always, help appreciated!

Bob (beachboync)

3

I took a look at the logs, but not being fully log literate I am not sure all that I am seeing. This is what happens when I press 8-ON on the remote to invoke scene TV. Note that the device I want to control is 7, the device that also gets controlled is 9, but why? 7 is the only device in that scene.

07 01/25/13 10:25:41.101 Event::Evaluate 1 Remote 1-2 scene Evening On is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:25:41.101 Event::Evaluate 2 Remote 1-9 scene Auto Late Night Off is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:25:41.102 Event::Evaluate 3 Remote 1-4 scene Bob Lamp On is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:25:41.102 Event::Evaluate 4 Remote 1-3 scene Bob Lamp Off is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:25:41.102 Event::Evaluate 5 Remote 1-1 scene Go To Bed is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:25:41.102 Event::Evaluate 6 Remote 1-8 scene TV is true users:(null) allow:1 <0x2b55b680>
08 01/25/13 10:25:41.102 Scene::RunScene running 12 TV <0x2b55b680>

===>The above seems to show that scene TV is true and starts running the scene

08 01/25/13 10:25:41.103 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest device: 7 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 action: SetLoadLevelTarget <0x2b55b680>
08 01/25/13 10:25:41.103 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest argument newLoadlevelTarget=40 <0x2b55b680>
06 01/25/13 10:25:41.103 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 7 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 variable: LoadLevelTarget was: 40 now: 40 #hooks: 0 upnp: 0 v:0xb8b8f0/NONE duplicate:1 <0x2b55b680>

===>The above sets the load level on 7 to 40 - correct!

02 01/25/13 10:25:41.104 ZWJob_SendData UPDATE MANUAL ROUTE 7=0xb1933f <0x2b55b680>
06 01/25/13 10:25:41.105 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 4 service: urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:SceneController1 variable: LastSceneTime was: 1359127539 now: 1359127541 #hooks: 0 upnp: 0 v:(nil)/NONE duplicate:0 <0x2b55b680>
02 01/25/13 10:25:41.106 ZWaveController::HandlePollUpdate_Basic_Sett node 4 device 4 button 8 is a dup <0x2b55b680>

===>I don’t understand this, but it seems to say that button 8 is a dup - is that saying that the button is being pressed again, or is there another thing that button 8 is triggering ?

02 01/25/13 10:25:41.109 UPDATE MANUAL ROUTE2 7=0xb1933f <0x2b95b680>
02 01/25/13 10:25:41.109 ZW_Send_Data node 7 USING ROUTE 255.216.142.177 <0x2b95b680>
02 01/25/13 10:25:41.217 UPDATE MANUAL ROUTE2 8=0xb6bc9f <0x2b95b680>
02 01/25/13 10:25:41.217 ZW_Send_Data node 8 USING ROUTE 255.208.162.182 <0x2b95b680>
06 01/25/13 10:25:41.326 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 9 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 variable: LoadLevelStatus was: 50 now: 0 #hooks: 6 upnp: 0 v:0xb8b2e0/NONE duplicate:0 <0x2b55b680>

===>and here it sets the load level on 9 to zero - wrong! - why ?

06 01/25/13 10:25:41.326 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 9 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:SwitchPower1 variable: Status was: 1 now: 0 #hooks: 0 upnp: 0 v:0xb74f80/NONE duplicate:0 <0x2b55b680>
04 01/25/13 10:25:41.328 <0x2b55b680>
02 01/25/13 10:25:41.330 UPDATE MANUAL ROUTE2 7=0xb1933f <0x2b95b680>
02 01/25/13 10:25:41.330 ZW_Send_Data node 7 USING ROUTE 255.216.142.177 <0x2b95b680>
06 01/25/13 10:25:41.435 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 7 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 variable: LoadLevelStatus was: 40 now: 40 #hooks: 4 upnp: 0 v:0xb8b2e0/NONE duplicate:1 <0x2b55b680>

===>and here it seems to set 7 to 40 again?

Now, if I run the scene from U15, this is the log:

08 01/25/13 10:37:22.566 Scene::RunScene running 12 TV <0x2cf5b680>
08 01/25/13 10:37:22.566 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest device: 7 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 action: SetLoadLevelTarget <0x2cf5b680>
08 01/25/13 10:37:22.567 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest argument newLoadlevelTarget=40 <0x2cf5b680>
06 01/25/13 10:37:22.567 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 7 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 variable: LoadLevelTarget was: 40 now: 40 #hooks: 0 upnp: 0 v:0xb8b8f0/NONE duplicate:1 <0x2cf5b680>
02 01/25/13 10:37:22.568 ZWJob_SendData UPDATE MANUAL ROUTE 7=0xb1933f <0x2cf5b680>
02 01/25/13 10:37:22.569 UPDATE MANUAL ROUTE2 7=0xb1933f <0x2b95b680>
02 01/25/13 10:37:22.569 ZW_Send_Data node 7 USING ROUTE 255.216.142.177 <0x2b95b680>
02 01/25/13 10:37:22.667 UPDATE MANUAL ROUTE2 7=0xb1933f <0x2b95b680>
02 01/25/13 10:37:22.667 ZW_Send_Data node 7 USING ROUTE 255.216.142.177 <0x2b95b680>
06 01/25/13 10:37:22.775 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 7 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 variable: LoadLevelStatus was: 40 now: 40 #hooks: 4 upnp: 0 v:0xb8b2e0/NONE duplicate:1 <0x2b55b680>

===> and it looks correct, no action on device 9.

Any knowledgeable log readers out there?

4

And here is some more strangeness. If I press button 7 on the remote, the light in question (Bob Lamp) goes on even though there is no trigger for button 7 at all! Log:

06 01/25/13 10:58:58.545 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 4 service: urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:SceneController1 variable: sl_SceneActivated was: 7 now: 4 #hooks: 6 upnp: 0 v:0xb83e58/NONE duplicate:0 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:58:58.546 Event::Evaluate 1 Remote 1-2 scene Evening On is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:58:58.546 Event::Evaluate 2 Remote 1-9 scene Auto Late Night Off is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:58:58.547 Event::Evaluate 3 Remote 1-4 scene Bob Lamp On is true users:(null) allow:1 <0x2b55b680>
08 01/25/13 10:58:58.547 Scene::RunScene running 8 Bob Lamp On <0x2b55b680>
08 01/25/13 10:58:58.547 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest device: 9 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 action: SetLoadLevelTarget <0x2b55b680>
08 01/25/13 10:58:58.547 JobHandler_LuaUPnP::HandleActionRequest argument newLoadlevelTarget=100 <0x2b55b680>
06 01/25/13 10:58:58.548 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 9 service: urn:upnp-org:serviceId:Dimming1 variable: LoadLevelTarget was: 0 now: 100 #hooks: 0 upnp: 0 v:0xb8b8f0/NONE duplicate:0 <0x2b55b680>
02 01/25/13 10:58:58.548 ZWJob_SendData UPDATE MANUAL ROUTE 8=0xb6bc9f <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:58:58.549 Event::Evaluate 4 Remote 1-3 scene Bob Lamp Off is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:58:58.550 Event::Evaluate 5 Remote 1-1 scene Go To Bed is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
07 01/25/13 10:58:58.550 Event::Evaluate 6 Remote 1-8 scene TV is false repeat 0/-1 <0x2b55b680>
06 01/25/13 10:58:58.550 Device_Variable::m_szValue_set device: 4 service: urn:micasaverde-com:serviceId:SceneController1 variable: LastSceneID was: 7 now: 7 #hooks: 0 upnp: 0 v:(nil)/NONE duplicate:1 <0x2b55b680>

You can see that somehow it thought button 4 (which correctly does run scene Bob Lamp On) was true and ran it. But why??

And, by the way, I have two 45600 remotes and the problem occurs with both, so its probably not bad hardware. But for this test, I removed the second remote.

Thanks again, Bob

5

Bump. C’mon guys, somebody out there must understand this stuff…

6

Bob (I assume) - How cleanly did the setup go with the remote? Usually when things don’t work for me I start trying different things? Did you go a couple rounds of trial and error to get it working? If so perhaps this put some commands in the remote that are lingering. Have you tried resetting the remote and starting from scratch?

How are the bob lamp on/off and tv scenes setup to be triggered in vera?

I don’t know what is going on either but my initial hunch is that the remote is setup by default or somehow was programmed to send a command to vera upon the buttons press and this is completely independent of the scene you have set in vera that is using the button press as a trigger.

What happens if you remove the button press as a trigger for the scene in vera? Does the unwanted behavior still occur? Do any of the other buttons on the remote do anything? Are there any groups/associations setup? Are you using anything complex like a combo switch as a trigger?

02 01/25/13 10:25:41.106 ZWaveController::HandlePollUpdate_Basic_Sett node 4 device 4 button 8 is a dup <0x2b55b680>

===>I don’t understand this, but it seems to say that button 8 is a dup - is that saying that the button is being pressed again, or is there another thing that button 8 is triggering ?

I think “dup” may be the word duplicate that is cut off.

I think the problem lies with the logic of the scenes and/or how the remote is setup. Firs I would remove the remote from vera, factory reset the remote, and start from scratch. Then go over all triggers for the scenes and groups/associations/etc of the devices.

How big is your network? Are we talking about a few devices and scenes or many?

7

Hi Shorty - thanks for ending my loneliness; you asked some good questions. I’ll answer, and then plan to do some more debugging later today.

My network now is quite small - just 3 dimmers and 2 switches.

The installation of both 45600 remotes went with no problem, using the Press and hold Setup, type 967 procedure. But Vera doesn’t specifically know the device type, just as generic remote. I will check this in more detail later. I have reset and uninstalled both, but going to try it again.

The scenes work fine from U15 or various remote software on my phones. The triggers seem to be correct - i.e. click Triggers, select the device, set for Scene On, set the scene number. It all configured OK and runs OK - just that more stuff happens.

Looking at the logs, I think as you said the problem has to do with scenes being selected from the remote. I definitely see that other scenes are being triggered incorrectly. In one case, it even appeared to get the wrong scene number - when I pressed 7 (which has no trigger at all) it processed as if for 4. I am quite sure that the scenes and triggers on U15 are being set up correctly - that was the first thing I checked.

I can try to quantify the problem further, but it certainly looks like Vera is somehow misinterpreting the button status it is getting from the remote. If so, this sounds like a bug of some kind.

Back as soon as I find out more info.

Bob (beachboync)

8

Here are the results of this morning’s tests.

I removed both remotes from the configuration by clicking on their trash can buttons. Saved, and they do seem to be gone. All listed triggers (Dashboard, Overview) seem to be gone.

Reinstalled the first remote. It came in as a generic scene controller, manufacturer blank. I programmed button 4 for Bob Lamp On, and button 3 for Bob Lamp Off. Both worked correctly. BUT if I pressed button 7, Bob Lamp came back on, even though trigger 7 was not set up for any scene. As shown in the logs above, it probably did invoke the scene Bob Lamp On.

So I tried assigning button 7 to a different scene. That scene worked OK, but ALSO Bob Lamp came on still.

I then configured the second remote, to make sure that there was not just a hardware key problem with the first remote. Nope, it also did the phantom 7. Note that no other scenes were assigned to Remote 2 at this time.

I am getting the impression that there is a Trigger for 7 on both remotes (or perhaps more triggers) that is phantom - doesn’t show up in the U15 displays, but is nevertheless there - even if I have manually removed all visible triggers and removed the remotes from the configuration.

So, perhaps the question is: How do I remove all status of those remotes without resetting Vera and installing everything again? BTW, the device numbers for the new instances of the remotes are new and unique and not the same device numbers as previously used.

Bob

9

I did some more testing, and nothing makes sense unless…

I am now thinking that the problem is definitely residual or phantom triggers for the remote. Even though you delete the remote device, even though you delete the triggers, even though you delete the offending scenes and reprogram them with a new name (and id), the problem still persists. If you add a new trigger using a previous button’s number, the new trigger works fine, but also the old one runs.

So once again, without blowing the entire Vera configuration away and starting from scratch, how do I get out of this mess and remove those phantom triggers?

Bob

10

Your best bet is going to be filing a support request through Vera, and provide a link to this forum thread.

11

Thanks guessed - I am going to do that. The more I play around, I am more and more sure that the problem is the phantom triggers as I described.

12

Sorry to be posting soo much on this thread, but this should be the last for a while.

I managed to find a mapping of my remote buttons that almost 100% does what I want. I started by figuring out what the phantom buttons did, and then added what wasn’t there. Not the key layout that I wanted, but good enough for now.

Bob

13

Bob - sounds like you made some solid progress so that is good. It doesn’t sound like it is 100% fixed though. I think there is still confusion. Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my previous post or maybe some words are being used loosely.

When you say phantom/residual trigger, I understand this to mean a trigger that is programmed in vera to control a scene. Using that definition, I do NOT think there is a phantom/residual trigger in play that needs to be debugged.

My suspicion is that 2 things are occurring.

  1. The first is vera is noticing the button press, identifying the button press as a trigger, then running the scene that corresponds to it. This is what you want.

  2. The second is that the remote control is executing a scene directly which is independent of vera. The remote is a scene controller so it can control scenes. It just so happens that you are using a button press on a scene controller as a trigger as well. So button 8 is setup to run the unwanted BobLampOn scene as well as sending a trigger to vera which is using that to run correct scene.

Here’s a painful analogy.

There is a coach who trains sprinters and hunters.
The coach trains his sprinters to run immediately when they hear a gunshot.
The coach trains his hunters to shoot a duck immediately when the town bell strikes 1 oclock.
The town bell is directly above the coach.

The coach notices that when he uses a recording of a gunshot over the speakers, the sprinter starts running immediately and nothing else happens. This is the same as you running the scene directly using the web UI. No actual gunshot occurred likewise no actual vera trigger occurred (not pun/confusion intended). It is a simulated event to get the desired outcome.

The coach notices that when he shoots a gun with blanks, the sprinter starts running immediately and nothing else happens. This is what you are trying to accomplish. The actual event and resulting action occur (real gunshot = real button press, runner starts = proper scene). Nothing else unwanted happens. Since the gun shoots a blank a real gunshot occurred but no bullet was fired.

The coach notices when he shoots the gun with real bullets, the sprinter starts running immediately and a mallard falls out of the sky. The bullet did not hit the mallard, it hit the bell exactly once. The hunters shot the duck. The coach doesn’t understand why his hunters shot the duck because it is not 1 o’clock. He suspects there is a flaw in his training that somehow instructs his hunters to shoot a duck at the wrong time or to shoot a duck when they hear a gunshot like the runner (potential for infinite loop if they hear their own shots). What actually occurred was the bullet hit the clock, ringing it once, creating a simulated sound of the town bell ringing 1 oclock and triggering the hunters to kill a duck.

The gun is the remote. The sound of the shot is the button press. The live bullet is the fact the remote is a scene controller. The bullet hitting the bell creating the simulated 1 oclock ringing is the command to execute BobLampOn (and the mallard) directly. Vera is not being triggered to execute BobLampOn, the remote is doing it directly. The dead mallard is the result of running BobLampOn scene.

I am now thinking that the problem is definitely residual or phantom triggers for the remote. Even though you delete the remote device, even though you delete the triggers, even though you delete the offending scenes and reprogram them with a new name (and id), the problem still persists. If you add a new trigger using a previous button's number, the new trigger works fine, but also the old one runs.

I disagree with it being a trigger. I think this points to the remote being a controller and having all of the vera scenes in it. So it is executing the scenes it has stored independent of vera. You would need to clear the remote to purge these. Try unplugging vera and pressing the button. If the unwanted scenes still run then they are running directly from the remote and the data it has stored.

I looked at the remote pdf. It says 967 copies all network info and creates a new primary or secondary remote. I don’t know if deleting it from vera removes this functionality. Have you tried all of the buttons on the remote. Is there one that directly runs the tvon scene. I suspect there is. If so you can delete the trigger in vera and just use that button.

14

Thanks Shorty, and I agree that we haven’t hit the nail on the head yet.

By phantom trigger I mean one that used to be valid, was deleted, but still remains in the U15 system invisible.

I seriously thought about the 45600 acting as a secondary controller, but abandoned that idea. First of all, I cannot use it in that mode. If I press the Light button on the remote it should then perform the light control as a secondary controller. It doesn’t. Nothing functions after pressing Light - no numbered button does anything nor is there any accompanying LED activity. The only scenes could be valid in the remote are those copied when the remote was initialized, but the phantom works for newer scenes which were not copied to the remote.

The second fact that leads me towards the phantom trigger theory is that the things that are happening are in fact things I probably did with the remote prior to getting serious about a final configuration - i.e. fooling around. For example, if I set a scene for button 8 to dim the lamp to 50%, then tried to delete it, that scene still dims to 50% if you press button 8 later - the phantom event.

Thanks for the help; tech support is the next step.

I did get things running almost 100% though. By finding the phantom trigger actions, I was able to then use those keys as-is and define the other functions I want to do to keys that are unused by the phantoms. Its not the logical key layout that I wanted, but usable.

I will post here as things progress.

Thanks, Bob

15

I understand what you mean by phantom trigger. Just puzzling why it persists while other deleted triggers to into ether. Must be something unique about the remote. Hopefully tech support can find it.

Why can’t you use the remote as a secondary?

When you say the phantom works for newer scenes which were not copied, are these newer scenes completely different than the original scene (different lights being controlled)? You mentioned it is a small network so if you created a “new” boblampon scene and it has a new number and different name but still performs the same actions, it may be the controller still running the old scene. I suspect you troubleshooted past this point but wanted to mention it.

How did you find the phantom trigger actions?

From the price I went ahead and bought one on amazon. Lets see what happens.

16

I just pushed buttons and watched what happened on the U15 Devices screen.

Bob

17

To further eliminate the possibility that the remote is acting as a secondary controller, I went through the Setup/Delete process on the remote to try and delete anything that was in the remote. Nothing responded - i.e. only red LED when you try, not two blinking green.

Bob

18

Nothing from MCV support yet. No news might be good news as there may be a real problem and they are looking deeper into it - hope!

Bob

19

Some more interesting stuff, pertinent to 45600 remotes but I am not sure how significant to my problem.

One of my remote switches, 6, had nothing assigned to it in Vera, but still exhibited the phantom behavior. I took the remote and went through the manual procedure to delete a scene, and deleted scene (button) 6. Nothing happened in Vera.

Now, there is no activity for 6 at all. The remote does nothing (no LEDS when pressed). BUT the phantom is gone!

BUT, then assigning a new trigger for 6 back in Vera, it still didn’t work at the remote - i.e. deleting it in the remote permanently killed that button. The new scene was NOT transferred to the remote.

So I surmise that scenes are in fact copied to the remote when using the Setup/967 procedure to set up the remote, and only then. As to what scenes are copied, and to what switch numbers, that is not obvious. I checked the scene numbers in Vera and they don’t map to the phantom scenes in the remote.

What would have happened if I had no scenes in Vera and I initialized the 45600? Would the buttons still be available for triggers or not?

Gosh, I wish I had some help on this!

Bob (beachboync)

20

Wishing you luck on this … I bought one of these for a few bucks … but have not looked into using it yet.