Need assistance with a long term network issue

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#1

Ok please hang with me for a moment as my description of my issue may be lengthy.

I am very tech savvy and very mechanically inclined. So that has giving me extreme patience. I almost never can find my answers and rarely look to forums for help. I usually am the helper.

I have had this issue for close to 2 years and it dwells with after much research to be a handshake issue between my Onkyo Tx-Nr809 receiver and the Vera units. So far this is how my dilemma proceeded:
Close to 2 years ago I purchased the Onkyo and liked the idea it had network capabilities that I found much useful. I setup the unit and had it running for a week before I noticed the Network would not initialize (sure it is similar to boot). It would hang at some point during the process then I would only get a blue screen when I would change the input source. The only way it would clear the blue screen would be to unplug and wait for all juice to drain and plug it back in. It would sometimes initialize but soon into use it would lock and blue screen again. Sometimes initializing would never happen at all. I figure I have a lemon and return the unit. I get the new unit and find shortly after owning it has the same issue. Now since I have tech experience with software design, coding, and some networking background I figure it has to be a hardware issue somewhere in the connection stream.

I am using a powerline adapter for network connection (Panasonic BL-PA100) which I figured would be a good place to start the trace of this issue. I trade that with 2 other units in my home to find they are working as they should - and still I get another blue screen. Let me mention to date that those Panasonic units have been the best powerline adapters I have tried and I nearly tried most all that were out nearly 3 years ago.

So now that I tried the powerline adapters I let the issue go because I thought it must be a firmware issue with the Onkyo. I did contact them and they feel it was something in my system causing the lockup. I didn’t have much time so I waited a few months for firmware updates which came and went with no improvement to my issue.

Now as I waited for the firmware update I was in ready for a router upgrade. I have run a buffalo with DD-Wrt open source firmware which was the S**t till it was getting work out from the pace I put my routers through. I upgraded to an Asus RT-N66U which was an excellent upgrade and finally gave me N frequency which now many of my devices have. So again I try initializing the Onkyo - no luck - but it did work once or twice and worked much better with the greater throughput that the Asus put out. With this new router I thought I would try Onkyo’s wireless dongle - Again worked slightly but went to blue screen.

OK!!! Now the fun part. I was cleaning the hallway, take in the fact over a year and 1/2 have passed trying to figure this out, and unplugged my Vera 2. With my relentlessness I happened, for the H**l of it, to try and initialize the Onkyo. For the love of God it worked again :o and again :o and again :o. The funny part was at first I couldn’t figure how it just started to work then I noticed the plug was out of the Vera. So now I finally find the issue that was causing the lockup. Quite honestly I would have never thought that the Vera2 could create this issue.

I figured since I discovered this on a couple months before the release of the Vera 3 that I would just buy the Vera 3 and all would be good since the unit was new and it may have a changed hardware scheme. Well I bought it and the issue still exists!!! So this leaves me at the mercy of fellow techs that can help me figure this out. I didn’t want to put in a support ticket if there is something I might be able to do first.

After finding the Vera system were the issue, I have done tons of reading and found that it may be a handshake issue. I am not familiar with handshake other than it has something to do with authentication. I did however find it strange that after combing the internet about the issue I am having that I wasn’t able to find anyone experiencing the same issue. So my hopes are that we can figure this out so if someone someday has this same issue they can read this post for the answer.

Please see if you guys can once and for all help me with this! ;D

#2

eclipset,

You’re not the first to mention here that Vera has a habit of confusing Onkyo receivers. I’m sure you’ve read those posts already.

Vera has a habit of sending queries to devices that it sees on the LAN. They are specially-crafted HTTP messages that, if the other end responds, identify the device as, say, a network camera, or a GC-100, or something. The plan is that if the device isn’t one of those, then the device will ignore the message, Vera won’t get a response, and everyone’s happy.

Only, what if the HTTP message accidentally killed the device? This seems to be what’s happening with the Onkyo. Rather than ignore the message, it crashes. Bad coding on Onkyo’s part, sure, but you haven’t got a hope of getting them to fix it.

Later Vera firmwares have an option under Setup > Net & Wi-Fi > Auto detect devices on my home network. Make sure this is off. That might be enough. If it isn’t, it’s time to put a firewall in place. Put Vera on its own subnet, poke holes through the firewall for your network cameras and other things you want Vera to know about, and block everything else.

If you are feeling particularly adventurous you could even sniff the packets Vera is sending out and see what exact message crashes your receiver. I think it’d be fun to package that into a proof-of-concept program and show it to the folks on the Onkyo forum.

#3

I will turn off the autodetect and see if that gets me in the right direction.

I honestly haven’t seen any info on my issue anywhere, I’ve got more searching to do. But it looks as if you identified some remedies for me to look into.

Just to understand some of your explaination: Is the packet that is sent is memorized by the onkyo in some fashion, because only a hard reset will releive the failed initialization. Since it is Onkyo’s issue they should help us by recoding!

I know basic networking, assigning IP addresses to devices, Setting up access points, repeaters and firewalls. No expert by far. You sound very verse in this area. I will research setting up a hardware firewall to block communications between vera and my network devices.

I belive you are saying install a hardware firewall between my router and the vera. With the Vera being wireless is there a firewall device that works using wireless? I haven’t converted my Asus to DD-wrt yet but I now the firewall interface with DD-WRT is much more usable that stock firmwares allow. I may be able to block all ports to Vera Except for internet use which is all I need Vera’s ports open to. I will try the stock firewall and see how that goes.

I don’t need Vera to see my camera system. I have a 16 camera system but only need to use that through my iphone. I have a small server setup to send video to my iphone when I need to monitor my home on the go. I don’t need Vera to access them.

Thanks for your kind response!

#4

May run a packet sniffer to see which code is ruining my day, like that idea

#5

It smells like the Onkyo only does a full reset of the networking stack when it is completely removed from power. Fair enough, provided that it’s robust enough to not hang on a killer packet. Which it isn’t.

I belive you are saying install a hardware firewall between my router and the vera.

What I’ve done is activate the firewall in the router. I’m not just talking a lightweight ingress firewall like you get in consumer equipment, I’m talking about proper iptables-style packet forwarding between subnet zones, setting the default policy to REJECT and then letting select ports and protocols through. I flashed my router with OpenWrt to get this functionality. DDWrt might have iptables; I’m less familiar with it.

#6
What I've done is activate the firewall in the router. I'm not just talking a lightweight ingress firewall like you get in consumer equipment, I'm talking about proper iptables-style packet forwarding between subnet zones, setting the default policy to REJECT and then letting select ports and protocols through. I flashed my router with OpenWrt to get this functionality. DDWrt might have iptables; I'm less familiar with it.

These are areas I need to learn. I tend to learn what is needed to get the job done, but I almost never forget. DD-WRT should have the abilities that I might need. Seems I have looked all over the stock firmware in my router and I don’t find an area to isolate the VERA. I do see a VPN setting. Not knowing exactly how a VPN works, I might look into it since what VPN stands for. I don’t know how to dabble with Subnets but will look at that for isolation.

I did turn off auto-detect and now it still locks but as soon as I unplug VERA it allows it to initialize, no more hard reset. Atleast Im getting somewhere.

I’m sure I’ll get this figured out soon enough. Thanks again for your continued assistance.

UTWGYD

#7

VPN is for Virtual Private Networking. Cool, but not helpful here.

#8

Is the onkyo connected directly to the Vera or to a hub/switch?
I’m thinking about 2 issues.
You could try to put the Onkyo on the DMZ port on the router and see if it’s stable. That port is usually Firewalled but you might need to check your settings also.
But I also think that there might be a issue with port speed and issues with speed negotiation. You could try to change the port speed on your switch from auto to manually 10/100/1000 and full / half duplex.

#9

[quote=“HouseBot, post:8, topic:173509”]Is the onkyo connected directly to the Vera or to a hub/switch?
I’m thinking about 2 issues.
You could try to put the Onkyo on the DMZ port on the router and see if it’s stable. That port is usually Firewalled but you might need to check your settings also.
But I also think that there might be a issue with port speed and issues with speed negotiation. You could try to change the port speed on your switch from auto to manually 10/100/1000 and full / half duplex.[/quote]

Not sure if my Asus NT-R66U has DMZ port feature. After focusing in on subnetting, I find that seems to do the trick. I am not sure if I need two routers to subnet. I guess this is fine since I have 5 older one lying around. I can just configure one on a differnet subnet and place the Onkyo on that since its the only device I am having issues with. I only need it to have a gateway to the internet to retrieve the internet radio functions. I just can’t get enough of the 181FM stations! Look them up they are great. I have been bluetoothing them to the onkyo since my issues but the sound is horrible compared to straight into the Onkyo through its direct connection. Plus I loose my on screen navigation features.

I just realized if I subnet using a second router that I will probably loose my O remote iphone control app. Best onkyo control app out by far. I could only use it if the iphone is logged into the second router (subnet) I believe but then would loose the ability to control vera so I would end up in the same boat

I really want the easiest method to isolate the Onkyo from Vera while still having control of both by my Iphone. I wish routers had a port blacklist feature for IPs If so I could blacklist all ports of the Onkyo except the UNP/TCP internet gateway port which is set at 8080.

Planning on installing DD-WRT this weekend to see what options it has in the area we are discussing.

#10

no DMZ didn’t work when I set the Onkyo on that port. I don’t believe the ASUS has a firewall on it. It still allows Vera’s Lock up packets to reach the Onkyo not allowing initialization.

#11

If it has a DMZ port it has firewall features. Maybe you need to enable it in the config?

#12

The current firmware doens’t have a firewall on DMZ. There is a firewall, its enabled to cover all connections to the router. I wish it had the feature you mention. Its possible once I load DD-WRT firmware this weekend it will have firewalled DMZ ports, not that this will aleviate this issue. Seems subnetting is the only way.

#13

I think that the most simple solution is to put your Onkyo on a different VLAN, if your router is capable, or a different subnet using a second router as you mentioned.

As far as your O Remote app goes, it all depends on what their implementation of Zero Configuration is and what your router(s) support. If it allows adding the receiver manually by IP address, then you are good. Of course the easiest way around the automatic configuration issue is to use a Wi-Fi router as your second router that assigns your phone or tablet an IP address in the same subnet as your Onkyo.

If your primary router supports VLANs, then you could set up a separate Wi-Fi SSID attached to the VLAN for your Onkyo and just use that. As long as your routing and NAT is all configured correctly, then your phone or tablet would also still be able to access the internet and the rest of your network, including Vera.

If you have to go with your phone or tablet being on a different subnet from your Onkyo and have to use zero config, then your router(s) would need to support forwarding of either Apple’s Multicast DNS/DNS-SD or Microsoft’s UPnP SSDP, depending on which O Remote uses, between different subnets; only your second router would need to support this if using two.

Placing a firewall between the Onkyo and your switch would work, but then you have an extra point of failure and the performance of your network connection depends on the latency the firewall potentially adds in processing traffic; this is not a big deal if you are only using the connection for firmware updates and remote control. If it is used to stream higher bitrate video files, then you may run into some issues. It is not an issue if the firewall is capable of processing traffic faster than the link is capable of delivering it.

#14

[quote=“OtisPreslsy, post:13, topic:173509”]I think that the most simple solution is to put your Onkyo on a different VLAN, if your router is capable, or a different subnet using a second router as you mentioned.

As far as your O Remote app goes, it all depends on what their implementation of Zero Configuration is and what your router(s) support. If it allows adding the receiver manually by IP address, then you are good. Of course the easiest way around the automatic configuration issue is to use a Wi-Fi router as your second router that assigns your phone or tablet an IP address in the same subnet as your Onkyo.

If your primary router supports VLANs, then you could set up a separate Wi-Fi SSID attached to the VLAN for your Onkyo and just use that. As long as your routing and NAT is all configured correctly, then your phone or tablet would also still be able to access the internet and the rest of your network, including Vera.

If you have to go with your phone or tablet being on a different subnet from your Onkyo and have to use zero config, then your router(s) would need to support forwarding of either Apple’s Multicast DNS/DNS-SD or Microsoft’s UPnP SSDP, depending on which O Remote uses, between different subnets; only your second router would need to support this if using two.

Placing a firewall between the Onkyo and your switch would work, but then you have an extra point of failure and the performance of your network connection depends on the latency the firewall potentially adds in processing traffic; this is not a big deal if you are only using the connection for firmware updates and remote control. If it is used to stream higher bitrate video files, then you may run into some issues. It is not an issue if the firewall is capable of processing traffic faster than the link is capable of delivering it.[/quote]

Thanks for your thorough reply! Much of what you mention is what I plan to try here in the next few weeks. I am not familiar with much discussed for remedy but I plan to reasearch them. After all our routers do much more than just give access to the internet.

I do have VLAN on current router but wont VERA still be able to reach the Onkyo and create the same issue I have? Unless VLAN will act as a firewall in certain aspects or offer isolation of connected devices.

#15

[quote=“eclipset, post:14, topic:173509”]Thanks for your thorough reply! Much of what you mention is what I plan to try here in the next few weeks. I am not familiar with much discussed for remedy but I plan to reasearch them. After all our routers do much more than just give access to the internet.

I do have VLAN on current router but wont VERA still be able to reach the Onkyo and create the same issue I have? Unless VLAN will act as a firewall in certain aspects or offer isolation of connected devices.[/quote]

Normally, automatic discovery of devices is broadcast traffic, which is isolated to the same LAN/VLAN. By default, routers do not forward broadcast traffic. My Vera only automatically discovers devices on the same subnet that it is on. All other IP devices I have to add manually.

#16

[quote=“OtisPreslsy, post:15, topic:173509”][quote=“eclipset, post:14, topic:173509”]Thanks for your thorough reply! Much of what you mention is what I plan to try here in the next few weeks. I am not familiar with much discussed for remedy but I plan to reasearch them. After all our routers do much more than just give access to the internet.

I do have VLAN on current router but wont VERA still be able to reach the Onkyo and create the same issue I have? Unless VLAN will act as a firewall in certain aspects or offer isolation of connected devices.[/quote]

Normally, automatic discovery of devices is broadcast traffic, which is isolated to the same LAN/VLAN. By default, routers do not forward broadcast traffic. My Vera only automatically discovers devices on the same subnet that it is on. All other IP devices I have to add manually.[/quote]

To clarify, you are saying that the Vlan is or is very similar to subnetting - I like the sound of this! I will look in the router today and see how well the vlan feature works under stock firmware. If it wont work or has limited adjustments I plan to do the DD-wrt flash today anyway which I know has a very good VLAN module in its feature set.

TY

#17

For those reading who are interested is subnetting and would like help, I have found this subnet calculator a very helpful tool and would like to share. [url=http://www.subnet-calculator.com/]http://www.subnet-calculator.com/[/url] It helps idetify Ip,masks and can help calculate numerous subnets.

#18

VLAN’s are a way of segmenting a physical Ethernet network into separate broadcast domains. They behave like physically separate LAN’s even though they are connected to the same physical network. This occurs at layer 2 only. In order to transmit traffic to another VLAN or another network, a router (or multilayer switch) has to be involved. This is where you would provide the default gateway IP address for the hosts on the VLAN to use to get outside, and you just assign all the hosts on the VLAN an IP address within the same range, which needs to be in a separate subnet from other VLAN’s in order to prevent duplicate IP addressing and routing loops or black holes.

In your case, the router and switch are in one unit, so everything happens inside that one device.

#19

Set up a subnet and everything works flawless. For now I just switch routers to control the onkyo remotely. Minor issue. Haven’t flashed DD-WRT yet, more reading required so the router isn’t bricked. Plus need to back up settings. Planned after the holidays. once I flash will try and get the onkyo on the same router if possible.

#20

Glad to know that things are working out for you so far! Just let us know if there are any problems with the rest.