Does anyone know if there are any wall switches/dimmers that are narrow?
the ca3000 and ca600s are 1.45 inches deep (which is pretty deep compared to a standard switch)-
You are looking for a shallow switch? Most (all?) Z-Wave switches and outlets are going to be deeper than regular switches, since there needs to be additional room for the electronics.
Is it possible to swap out the gang box, and put in a deeper one?
This is the bane of my existence! The switches I’ve used so far (Intermatic) as well as the receptacles (same) are dimensionally as tall and wide (if not more) than any GFCI I use, but they are extraordinarily deep. Then combined with the fact that you’re potentially adding in several wires and wire nuts that weren’t there in the first place. . .they swell out any standard (residential, interior) wall plate I use. And I’m sure that I’ve exceeded NEC box fill regulations as well.
A lot of my switches control things “behind the scenes” so I use exposed regular 4" square J-boxes, and I usually put an expansion ring on them to make it easier for me. But the ones that are mounted in living space I haven’t found a way to make look pretty. To the best of my knowledge it would take swapping out my slightly undersized junction boxes but I don’t know how many cubic inches that would gain me.
It’s all sort of speculation because I have no idea if the junction box conduit knockout placement to mud-ring face distance would actually be any better. That and replacing my junction boxes, in wall, would be a significant PITA.
But yes, I’d outfit my whole house w/ Z-wave equipped switches & receptacles if they could put some R&D into shrinking down the size a bit.
I don’t know for certain, but I would think most of the “bulk” is taken up by a transformer (or transformers). The switches get 110V in, and probably need 3.5V or 5V to run the micro-controllers, antennas, etc. inside them. And RF components take up space as well.
True, I’m no electrical engineer or anything but that sounds about right. However, I think the iPhone in my pocket outguns a z-wave switch in the technology per cubic inch department by like 5:1. Ha. . .
There has got to be some big honking relay in my CA3000s it has a “clonk” that’s louder than any relay in my HVAC system, and some of those are fist sized. Maybe they engineered loud on purpose to enhance its quasi non tactileness??
Actually there’s normally not any transformers in these devices, but the main issue is isolation for electrical safety. Your phone is very simple in that matter, since one can stack components very close. A device for mains simply must be well isolated due to electrical/fire regulations.
You make a good point in the electrical safety issue, but I certainly think there is still room for improvement and hope that they’ll shrink them down from their current 120% size over time. But. . .Leviton makes enOcean equipped 277 volt switches that are 1.2in deep, that’s a lot more shallow than my Intermatic switches. And to dismiss the phone as very simple is a bit of a stretch IMHO, especially since it’s powered by something that is so energy dense it can explode under the right circumstances. Not to start a big debate, I just think they could have done better considering the standard 4" square junction box is 1.625" deep. And by NEC regulation two Z-wave switches that deep (approx 1.6") with that many wires, in one box - right there is going to be a code violation in any state in the US.
I have a TV that is 1.2" deep, uses 800w of 120v a/c power, has a small Linux computer, a wifi radio, two TV tuners, a stereo speaker amp, two speakers, a camera for facial recognition, and multiple IR transceivers. . .
A newer generation of Intermatic switches has come out vs. the ones I bought on eBay, maybe the new ones are a bit smaller. It’s hard to tell, I can’t find measurement specs on them anywhere.
I have an uninstalled CA3000 sitting here that I’d be glad to measure if anyone wants to compare their switch of same or different make/model. Might be helpful to have a list of such measurements??
I found Leviton specs.
The box on the back are all the same size. All are 1.40" deep and 2.71" tall.
I attached the document here. See page 3.
Controllers are the same size, but I can’t attach both documents. I’ll try to add that in another post.
Here is a link to the controller spec sheet. I can’t upload the entire document, it’s just a bit over the file size limit.
Great info @purdueguy, thanks. I think one thing the Leviton switches have going for them that could potentially save someone a bit of space in some situations is that they are one of the only z-wave switches I’ve seen that can be wired w/o a neutral. That could eliminate some wires in some situations for sure.
Also, I read a couple good reasons on why they are a little chunky (to paraphrase): some level of surge suppression is present in each switch as is ESD protection and RFI filtering. That’s a lot of defensive counter-measures (lol) that aren’t present in your typical wall switch.
Actually, no. If your iPhone plugged into 110V AC it would be a LOT bigger; power transformer, electrical isolation, etc., all take up a lot of space. Look how big your iPhone wall wart is. If the iPhone connected directly to the AC power that wall wart would be inside the iPhone. How big would it be then?
And a Z-wave switch isn’t the $600 - $800 an iPhone actually costs (when you take away the carrier’s subsidizing of the cost). Smaller components cost more. But power components have size limitations based on the power they must handle.
Yes, I’m sure you could make the switches smaller, but no one would pay the cost.
Have you considered the Aeon Labs inserts that sit behind the existing switch? 1.93"Wx1.93"Hx.73"D.
You make a good point in the electrical safety issue, but I certainly think there is still room for improvement and hope that they’ll shrink them down from their current 120% size over time. But. . .Leviton makes enOcean equipped 277 volt switches that are 1.2in deep, that’s a lot more shallow than my Intermatic switches. And to dismiss the phone as very simple is a bit of a stretch IMHO, especially since it’s powered by something that is so energy dense it can explode under the right circumstances. Not to start a big debate, I just think they could have done better considering the standard 4" square junction box is 1.625" deep. And by NEC regulation two Z-wave switches that deep (approx 1.6") with that many wires, in one box - right there is going to be a code violation in any state in the US.
I have a TV that is 1.2" deep, uses 800w of 120v a/c power, has a small Linux computer, a wifi radio, two TV tuners, a stereo speaker amp, two speakers, a camera for facial recognition, and multiple IR transceivers. . .
A newer generation of Intermatic switches has come out vs. the ones I bought on eBay, maybe the new ones are a bit smaller. It’s hard to tell, I can’t find measurement specs on them anywhere.
I have an uninstalled CA3000 sitting here that I’d be glad to measure if anyone wants to compare their switch of same or different make/model. Might be helpful to have a list of such measurements??[/quote]
Hey, I’m just speaking in general terms. I don’t know the device that you are talking about, but wanted to point this out. Your TV might be shallow, but the area is large, which gives much space for electrical isolation in the power supply. The phone is simple in this respect, only low voltage. Other things might be complicated in your phone, but isolation is not.
Actually, no. If your iPhone plugged into 110V AC it would be a LOT bigger; power transformer, electrical isolation, etc., all take up a lot of space. Look how big your iPhone wall wart is. If the iPhone connected directly to the AC power that wall wart would be inside the iPhone. How big would it be then?
And a Z-wave switch isn’t the $600 - $800 an iPhone actually costs (when you take away the carrier’s subsidizing of the cost). Smaller components cost more. But power components have size limitations based on the power they must handle.
Yes, I’m sure you could make the switches smaller, but no one would pay the cost.[/quote]
I am essentially in agreement with the hows and whys of Z-wave switches being chunky. . .if you really, really want to continue talking about iPhones, I would say that you pick a funny example for wall wart excess in the Iphone, given that it takes 110v A/C to 5v D/C in approx one cubic inch, which is probably the smallest mass market consumer power supply ever made. And if you really, really wanted to fit one more cubic inch into an iPhone, spread out over its length and width, it wouldn’t be a lot of depth.
But Jony Ive will not be designing an iPhone with a retractable a/c plug in it anytime soon. . .thank god.
Personally I’d pay 2x the going rate for z-wave, or any other HAM devices if they were 30% smaller in size making them suitable and safer (and easier for me to install) all over my house.
Hopefully as HAM continues to increase in adoption we will see them starting to get smaller . . .and some day we will land a man on the moon!
@silvereagle2208 posted some information and a link in a different thread on a similar topic (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,11428.msg83225.html#msg83225).
Something like the In-Sure Push-In Wire connectors can help to conserve space in the box. I found the information helpful. Here is the link he provided:
http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=in-sure&div=0&l1=push-in
[quote=“knewmania, post:15, topic:172322”]@silvereagle2208 posted some information and a link in a different thread on a similar topic (http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,11428.msg83225.html#msg83225).
Something like the In-Sure Push-In Wire connectors can help to conserve space in the box. I found the information helpful. Here is the link he provided:
http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=in-sure&div=0&l1=push-in[/quote]
Thanks @knewmania, more good info and bringing the two threads up to date. I’m doing some very light remodeling in the kitchen last week and this coming week and might take a look at some of the electrical while I’ve got all my face plates off. If I come up with any simple DIYs to in some way “embiggen” my working area in the junction boxes (whether by using push-ins, different wire-nuts, trying to replace a box in place, or trying to chisel out mudring and replace with something that might allow more working room, etc.) I will certainly document and share. I’ve had similar headaches fitting GFCIs into my house everywhere, but I’d say the z-wave stuff is like 20% bigger than even those.
tangent: Just finished bringing my grounding and bonding up to NEC 2008 (?) new spec last week, woohoo! 2 Ground rods outside, inter-system exterior junction box (CATV, telco, & a/c grounding meet up in one block), new ground bus bar inside, new thicker wire and clamps on cold water pipe and bonded to hot water pipe. fwiw, I started driving those ground rods sometime in 2010. . .lol.