I have been changing out light switches with the GE/Jasco on off switch that requires a neutral. I also tried one dimmer that does not require a neutral.
For all the on and off switches I did (around 8, most three way, one four way, and some two way with just one switch), I had to tie into a neutral into the bundle of neutrals that were tied together in the back of the box.
I have several light switches that control an outlet so the light at the outlet will turn on and off. However, all of these switches have just a black, white, and ground and no bundle of neutrals in the back of the box. Would the white one be the neutral?
I do have a multimeter that I have been using to find the line (hot wire) in each box and also find out where the travelers go. For each switch I just pulled a neutral from the back of the box. On the three way and four way switches, i have some whites that appear to be travelers so I cannot just go with color of wire. I been figuring out where the travelers go by temporarily connecting the hot to a traveler and then check at the other box.
I have not tested the switches that control the outlet yet (I just looked in the box). Before I pull it apart, I figured I would check here. Should the white be the neutral? If so, will it read hot with the multimeter? If it is not, what switch can I use that does not require a neutral?
A true neutral will should never read any voltage, it’s suppose to be neutral or 0 volts potential. Electrical current in a house flows from the hot (120v), through the load (your light-bulb or appliance), and back to the neutral where it flows back to the main panel and grounded.
My advice is turn off power to that circuit, remove the switch cover plate, and carefully pull the switch out from the wall as far as you can without removing any wires. Then turn power back on and use your volt meter to determine the hot (it will always read 120v no matter what position the switch is in) and the load wire going to the outlet (it will only read 120v when the switch is in a certain position). When taking these measurements, the black wire of your voltmeter should always be on ground (the bare copper or green wire).
More than likely, the white wire is the load wire, but you have to verify this with the voltmeter. There should NEVER be any guess work when it comes to electrical work.
Both the Leviton VRS05-1LZ and Cooper RF9518 are On/Off switches that don’t require a neutral, but they cost twice as much as the Jasco switches.
White is generally neutral in north america, so you probably have a neutral wire. The grouping of neutral wires in a box is convenience for the installers. If you only have one switch in a box, you won’t have more than one neutral.
You should not see a voltage on the neutral if you measure the voltage across the neutral and the ground. You will see a voltage (120) if you measure the voltage across a black and white wire. HOWEVER, you need to check both conditions in both switch positions.
SOME sloppy electricians may be lazy and run a wire to add a switch with 3 conductor wire (black, white and ground) so it is possible that you have that configuration. If the white wire is attached somehow to the existing single pole switch, well you have an issue.
Guys, I don’t think you’re reading his post all the way. It’s a switch controlling an outlet. In the old days, running a two conductor w/ground to control a remote load was typical practice (unfortunately). And yes, if the switch was retrofitted to the outlet and the electrician was lazy, then he more than likely ran a standard 2 conductor instead of using some 3 conductor with a red wire.
My comment is still correct … The White Wire at that WALL outlet is Neutral … If that wire does NOT go to the Switch … (because the electrician saved a few cents) than there is no neutral at the switch.
A non code compliant hack would be to use the ground wire as the neutral.
This will NOT work if you have a GFCI breakers or Switch providing the power.
thanks all. The house was constructed around 1980 in NY state.
I was assuming there was no neutral at the switch. However, if a neutral is usually at an outlet (where you hook up an outlet with a hot, neutral, and ground), then could they have run the hot and neutral to the switch so it makes the loop?
Any way I can tell if the white at the switch is a neutral? If I disconnect the switch I can use the multimeter to test for the hot by touching the hot (say black) and the ground (this is what I have been doing). If I touch the white (if it is neutral) and the ground I should get zero. If I touch the hot and the neutral will I get a voltage drop or anything that will confirm it is neutral? Or should I not do this?
Mike, please follow the procedure I outlined in my previous post, it will answer all your questions. No one can conclusively answer what you are asking since we are not physically there to take the measurements.
@ Bulldoglowell is correct … If there are only two wires (excluding the Ground/Green wire) attached to the switch … The white wire is definitely NOT a neutral.
A simple switch only has two connections … line … and load. The line will always be at 110-120V potential relative to the ground wire and the load will be at 110-120V potential based on Switch setting.
One question, are the Leviton and Cooper switches any better than the GE/Jasco? I know that is a little off topic, but before I buy more, I am wondering if they are worth double the price. My initial reaction is no (unless I need it for the no neutral issue).
Mike, since we are talking about plain binary switches (not dimmers) I would say no in terms of typical functionality. But there are some differences to note:
Ge/Jasco switches support Beaming technology, which relays secure messages from z-wave locks in your network. They also have a programmable LED indicator on the switch. The Leviton and Cooper switches do not have either.
The Leviton and Cooper switches support Instant Status, which means if someone manually turns on the switch, then Vera knows about it without having to poll the switch. This can be useful in certain scene setups and trigger applications. The Ge/Jascos do not have instant status.
thanks again. I am new to the automation and right now have the Vera3, a bunch of light switches, a Schlage dead bolt, and a few sensors.
It sounds like the GE light switches are good for what I am doing.
The scenes I have so far are to turn some lights on and off by schedule. I eventually want to figure out how to use a motion sensor to turn some outside lights on and off similar to a light I have there now over my garage. At night, when it sees motion, the light turns on and then off after 15 minutes. I assume that has nothing to do with the physical light switch. I will eventually be posting on how to do that after some searches.
Where Instant status comes into play is where you have motion turn the lights on and off, AND you want to effect the automation based on Manual control.
i.e. to Disable or extend the Auto Off time based on turning the light on manually.
[quote=“rinconmike, post:13, topic:179738”]thanks again. I am new to the automation and right now have the Vera3, a bunch of light switches, a Schlage dead bolt, and a few sensors.
It sounds like the GE light switches are good for what I am doing.
The scenes I have so far are to turn some lights on and off by schedule. I eventually want to figure out how to use a motion sensor to turn some outside lights on and off similar to a light I have there now over my garage. At night, when it sees motion, the light turns on and then off after 15 minutes. I assume that has nothing to do with the physical light switch. I will eventually be posting on how to do that after some searches.
Mike[/quote]
Mike, we’re in the same boat. First thing I got was Schlage locks (because they are the best made, not because they were zwave). Saw that the Vera cold control those, get status, send messages, etc. In order to support the mesh network for the locks, started installing GE binary switches on the “simple” lights that were near the locks, ie, front porch, foyer, stairs, etc.
But once you start dimming things, especially LEDs, you want to stay away from GE dimmers, or dimmers that don’t use a neutral wire. They will not work well together. Again, GE switches are great for most applications, but their dimmers are only good on incandescent bulbs. For the dimming stuff I’m using Leviton currently and will try Evolve/Linear dimmers.
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