LED lighting & control for new build

Other Devices & Integrations Lighting & Load Control
1

Guys, my head is spinning and I could really use some help narrowing things down for me (I’ve been searching/reading for a while). I’m doing a major remodel on my home and want to incorporate LEDs and lighting control wherever possible (within a budget). I’ve never done home automation before but have always wanted to and vera has always been at the top of the list of options (I’d eventually get my thermostat and sprinklers hooked in as well). So here’s where I’m at and what I’m looking for (why I’m confused). Thank you in advance for helping steer me.

I’ve done some of the electrical work myself and I’m likely to have the electrician only do the rough in for what’s left. That leaves me with something like 70 recessed lights (mostly 4") that will need switches and trim kits. They are in the family room, kitchen, hallways, bathrooms and bedrooms (we pretty much touched every room). A handful are 3 way and some 4 way switches. So that led me to thinking LED retrofits for recessed might work very well as they include the trim kit (i.e. I could spend $10-15 for a CFL bulb and new trim kit or just jump to $15-25 and go LED).

So my question is would you guys recommend doing the control at the bulb (like TCP or Philips)? Or would you do the control at the switch? Or quite possibly some combination of the two? There are so many options that I’m hoping hearing what you all have done or would do will help me narrow down what I want.

Thanks again

2

This is personal opinion, but if I were doing a major remodel I would put the HA at the switches. The switches are always there and you buy them once. If you use bulbs with built-in automation then you must use software compatible with that automation, and if you change to a different brand of bulb you will likely have to change software. Unless you are concerned with things like changing the color of the light I would rather have switches that could work with any compatible system. Also makes the bulbs much cheaper.

Just a tip. Make sure ALL the switch boxes have neutral wires in them. No loop wiring or you will not be able to use most of the newer generation HA or electronic (non-HA) dimmers that are designed to work with CFL and LED lights.

3

Totally agree with ufd108. Neutrals are required now by NEC 2011 anyways but alot of people, even electricians do not know that. All HA Relays require a neutral and most dimmers that are capable of dimming an LED/CFL load require them also. I would stay away from dimmable CFL’s completely, they are not designed to be dimmed even if they are dimmable. The quality for dimmable LED’s is not there yet, not too mention dimmable CFL’s which are even cheaper. Also make sure you test your install with ONE dimmer on your LED’s before you buy dozens of them, performance for bulbs varies greatly due to the quality issue with LED’s not the switch. I usually tell people to buy one switch and one bulb before buying any more to make sure the LED bulb you want is good enough to work with the correct switch.

Your next challenge is to decide on the type of switch to use. If you want everything to be automated, get Leviton or Cooper. They are twice the price almost but you will need instant status. If you aren’t going to automate everything and mostly want remote and manual or local control, then buy Linear not Evolve (which are the same just 25% more) or GE which are alot cheaper in quality.

For your multi-way circuits, be sure to run physical travelers to your slaves. You can always NOT use them and go with virtual slaves like Linear uses (thats all they use) but GE uses ONLY physical travelers, & Leviton has both. Make sure your electrician has neutrals even to the multi-way slave switch boxes too, EVERYWHERE literally means EVERYWHERE. If you are missing neutrals you will be sorry.

Good luck, hope that helps.

4

+1 to @haworld’s statement.

Automate/control the switch, not the bulb.

Test your dimmer of choice with your light/bulb of choice before purchasing a bunch. Many do not work together.

5

I have to say that before about a month ago, I was 100% this, but I bought a few of the Hue bulbs for use in my Halloween display and I am completely hooked. While the majority of my lights will be controlled at the switch, I have decided to put a few Hues around the house for very specific use cases. I will, however, be using Insteon KeypadLincs to give local control to them though by using the ISY and the ISY plugin for the vera (KPL → Vera → Hue). It’s actually pretty fast (about a 1 second delay at most). I guess you can say that technically I am keeping control at the switch.

Note that even if you DID do Hue bulbs (or any “smart” bulb), I would wire for control at the switches just in case you change your mind. If you are remodeling, it is easier to do it correctly now, than to try and fix it later. Even if you just have to put blanks on the wall boxes, I would rather that than to try and retrofit switches in later.
My “specific” use cases for hue bulbs:

[ul][li]My new front porch recessed lights (4 of them) - They will have Hue bulbs but mainly for changing colors depending on the holiday and give me individual control. I ran the electrical for these myself and I did run them to a central box in the attic (instead of daisy chaining them). I also spliced in the existing porch light’s switch line as well (but not hooked to these lights). So now I can have the lights with full time power (hue bulbs), individually switched with microswitches, or controlled by the existing porch light switch location.[/li]
[li]My bedside lamp - My Fiance is on this kick where “red” light helps you sleep better (if you are reading in bed at night before sleep that is). We normally keep a light on very dim, and now she wants that light red. With a hue bulb I can control with the bedroom’s KPL and I can use Vera to determine the color based on time or whatever I want.[/li]
[li]Behind the bathroom mirrors (2) - These will be the “light strips” they sell now. In the AM, they will provide color coding to give us quick information about the day ahead. One will show the forecast based on color. And the other can be used for a multitude of things like setting the strip to “blue” for trash day. This is obviously not something you would use a normal bulb for, but this is what actually got me started in Hue bulbs. I was going to do the Arduino thing, but at this point, my time was worth more so I went with the Hue.[/li][/ul]

6

As for LEDs… I have the CREE LEDs, 2700K and you can’t tell the difference in light quality. I dim them all the time w/ no issues…

Tried a bunch of different brands and there was no second place… just a lot of ‘last places’.

7

[quote=“johnes, post:6, topic:183286”]As for LEDs… I have the CREE LEDs, 2700K and you can’t tell the difference in light quality. I dim them all the time w/ no issues…

Tried a bunch of different brands and there was no second place… just a lot of ‘last places’.[/quote]

Every dimmable, non-Hue bulb, non-recessed light in my house uses a Cree bulb. They are priced right and they dim well with my dimmers (Leviton). I could not recommend them more.

8

Yeah in my testing, the Cree always did pretty good, except for low level control, where I had consistent but poor performance of dimming control at the lower spectrum of dimming levels. I personally had the best results with Philips. Eco-Smart too, they are rebranded Crees although for some reason, I normally ranked them higher than Cree becasue they seemed better at the low dimming level.

Now most of my tests were worst case tests in that I intentionally used one single 6-9 watt LED so with higher loads I am sure performance was improved.

9

I use all Philips LED bulbs, they dim will with Insteon and Jasco switches. Nobody can tell the difference between my lights vs incandescent.

10

thank you for all the replies. I’ll do some digging into the switches and start there. Similar to SirMeili I can see some instances where something like a Hue bulb would be nice (the porch is a good place). But you guys are right that if I have the switches in place I can go either way on the bulbs, especially as the technology changes over the next few years.

One question on 3 and 4 way switches - do all of them need to be z-wave or HA compatible, or just one of them? I’m thinking for the hallways. In one hallway I have 5 switches that can control those lights! Would be nice if only 1 had to be controllable.

Thanks

11

For multi-way circuits they ALL have to be designed to work together, in technology and for each model. If you buy one Linear Z-wave master, then you need one Linear Z-Wave slave for a 3-way. Using GE? One GE Z-Wave slave requires 2 GE Z-Wave slaves for a 4-way. Also you have to check the switches instructions to make sure you buy the right companion or slave for that model switch.

HA switches are different from the old standard style 3-way switches, they were a different switch with 3 poles and you installed multiples of them, the difference in circuits being done by the number of wires, these HA switches all are single pole (2-way) AND are also multi-way masters. So you always just need the one master for each circuit, then add the correct number of slaves that works with that master for however many number of switch locations you want.

Hope I explained this clearly, for you case, a 6-way circuit (which I have never done or seen before, the GE/Jasco cannot do that many actually) you would need 1 Linear Dimmer/Relay as the master and then associate 4 linear WT00Z-1’s to that one master. Leviton can do it as well with different models. Or you could use a scene controller but you need one that has a local load.

Hope thats clear, clear as mud? lol

12

I’d keep the house itself as physically traditional as possible. You never know where life or tech will go in the future. Also as of this moment I like things to operate traditionally as well as have the option to automate. I don’t always want to use my phone or tablet to control things. In that regard I went with physical switches and plug in modules vs things like hue. I have more bulb choices that way and am not tied to a particular brand or system.

13

[quote=“haworld, post:11, topic:183286”]For multi-way circuits they ALL have to be designed to work together, in technology and for each model. If you buy one Linear Z-wave master, then you need one Linear Z-Wave slave for a 3-way. Using GE? One GE Z-Wave slave requires 2 GE Z-Wave slaves for a 4-way. Also you have to check the switches instructions to make sure you buy the right companion or slave for that model switch.

HA switches are different from the old standard style 3-way switches, they were a different switch with 3 poles and you installed multiples of them, the difference in circuits being done by the number of wires, these HA switches all are single pole (2-way) AND are also multi-way masters. So you always just need the one master for each circuit, then add the correct number of slaves that works with that master for however many number of switch locations you want.

Hope I explained this clearly, for you case, a 6-way circuit (which I have never done or seen before, the GE/Jasco cannot do that many actually) you would need 1 Linear Dimmer/Relay as the master and then associate 4 linear WT00Z-1’s to that one master. Leviton can do it as well with different models. Or you could use a scene controller but you need one that has a local load.

Hope thats clear, clear as mud? lol[/quote]

thanks. It looks thoroughly confusing! JK. I’m going to leave that hallway until later but at least I now know that 3-way switches are not typical. I have neutrals everywhere so I should be set when ready. I’d rather stick to some standard switches (like front porch) and get something right and working. Been reading up on the various brands of switches. Lutron, Insteon, Leviton and Ge/Jasco seem to be the most popular (in no specific order). Lutron sounds rock solid but the expense/learning curve probably rules it out. Insteon might be the leader of the pack. Still reading up on everything. Will likely try 1 switch and bulb, make sure it’s working and if we like it move forward from there. Trying to take advantage of the fact that everything is wide open and I have no switches or lights/trim kits yet!

14

Agree 100%. The Hue’s are a really bad idea, unless they are used for some accent lighting only. Not everyone carries a smartphone around with them (like 4am in the morning). What happens when a guest, relative, babysitter, etc needs to turn on a light? If you are going to mount a tablet near these bulbs, then that’s a different story.

15

This is why I’ve paired up my Hues with Insteon scene controllers. That way there is a switch to press. I also do not use them in “common” areas as of right now, so the guest thing is not an issue.

I really like that Phillips released a switch, but they could have made it so that you could place it inside a traditional switch location. I hate that it’s this hockey puck looking thing that just looks out of place from the other switches. And if you’ve replaced say your Kitchen with Hues (not that I have), then you end up with a normal switch and a hockey puck looking thing near it. I personally would remove the old switch and put a blank, but it would still be super confusing for anyone else, EVEN THOSE THAT LIVE IN THE HOUSE!

16

[quote=“wolverines, post:13, topic:183286”][quote=“haworld, post:11, topic:183286”]For multi-way circuits they ALL have to be designed to work together, in technology and for each model. If you buy one Linear Z-wave master, then you need one Linear Z-Wave slave for a 3-way. Using GE? One GE Z-Wave slave requires 2 GE Z-Wave slaves for a 4-way. Also you have to check the switches instructions to make sure you buy the right companion or slave for that model switch.

HA switches are different from the old standard style 3-way switches, they were a different switch with 3 poles and you installed multiples of them, the difference in circuits being done by the number of wires, these HA switches all are single pole (2-way) AND are also multi-way masters. So you always just need the one master for each circuit, then add the correct number of slaves that works with that master for however many number of switch locations you want.

Hope I explained this clearly, for you case, a 6-way circuit (which I have never done or seen before, the GE/Jasco cannot do that many actually) you would need 1 Linear Dimmer/Relay as the master and then associate 4 linear WT00Z-1’s to that one master. Leviton can do it as well with different models. Or you could use a scene controller but you need one that has a local load.

Hope thats clear, clear as mud? lol[/quote]

thanks. It looks thoroughly confusing! JK. I’m going to leave that hallway until later but at least I now know that 3-way switches are not typical. I have neutrals everywhere so I should be set when ready. I’d rather stick to some standard switches (like front porch) and get something right and working. Been reading up on the various brands of switches. Lutron, Insteon, Leviton and Ge/Jasco seem to be the most popular (in no specific order). Lutron sounds rock solid but the expense/learning curve probably rules it out. Insteon might be the leader of the pack. Still reading up on everything. Will likely try 1 switch and bulb, make sure it’s working and if we like it move forward from there. Trying to take advantage of the fact that everything is wide open and I have no switches or lights/trim kits yet![/quote]

Remember all those brands you mentioned are each different HA protocols so Vera doesn’t support all of them out of the box as its natively zwave. Insteon requires a modem to work with vera, Leviton makes zwave devices as long as you get their z-wave line of Vizia RF, similar to Ge/Jasco, they both make non-zwave switches. I am not sure but I don’t think vera will work with Lutron without a separate bridge, the new one they just came out with.

17

[quote=“haworld, post:16, topic:183286”][quote=“wolverines, post:13, topic:183286”][quote=“haworld, post:11, topic:183286”]For multi-way circuits they ALL have to be designed to work together, in technology and for each model. If you buy one Linear Z-wave master, then you need one Linear Z-Wave slave for a 3-way. Using GE? One GE Z-Wave slave requires 2 GE Z-Wave slaves for a 4-way. Also you have to check the switches instructions to make sure you buy the right companion or slave for that model switch.

HA switches are different from the old standard style 3-way switches, they were a different switch with 3 poles and you installed multiples of them, the difference in circuits being done by the number of wires, these HA switches all are single pole (2-way) AND are also multi-way masters. So you always just need the one master for each circuit, then add the correct number of slaves that works with that master for however many number of switch locations you want.

Hope I explained this clearly, for you case, a 6-way circuit (which I have never done or seen before, the GE/Jasco cannot do that many actually) you would need 1 Linear Dimmer/Relay as the master and then associate 4 linear WT00Z-1’s to that one master. Leviton can do it as well with different models. Or you could use a scene controller but you need one that has a local load.

Hope thats clear, clear as mud? lol[/quote]

thanks. It looks thoroughly confusing! JK. I’m going to leave that hallway until later but at least I now know that 3-way switches are not typical. I have neutrals everywhere so I should be set when ready. I’d rather stick to some standard switches (like front porch) and get something right and working. Been reading up on the various brands of switches. Lutron, Insteon, Leviton and Ge/Jasco seem to be the most popular (in no specific order). Lutron sounds rock solid but the expense/learning curve probably rules it out. Insteon might be the leader of the pack. Still reading up on everything. Will likely try 1 switch and bulb, make sure it’s working and if we like it move forward from there. Trying to take advantage of the fact that everything is wide open and I have no switches or lights/trim kits yet![/quote]

Remember all those brands you mentioned are each different HA protocols so Vera doesn’t support all of them out of the box as its natively zwave. Insteon requires a modem to work with vera, Leviton makes zwave devices as long as you get their z-wave line of Vizia RF, similar to Ge/Jasco, they both make non-zwave switches. I am not sure but I don’t think vera will work with Lutron without a separate bridge, the new one they just came out with.[/quote]

Just a side note to this. Leviton now sells a line of z-wave items that are NOT part of their Vizia RF+ line. For instance, here is their non-Vizia RF Z-wave dimmer (listed as just “Decora Z-wave”)

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-DZMX1-1LZ-Controls-Capable-Universal/dp/B00LEWQY6C/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1412462780&sr=8-8&keywords=leviton+z-wave

18

I think it just depends on how much you’re comfortable with, and your tolerance for inconvenience when something like a controller fails or the your internet/router is on the fritz. My stuff was going into an 80 year old house, so I wasn’t going to replace any preexisting wiring. I wanted the physical part of my house to remain the same, but I didn’t want to rely on any computer in case of failure to do basic things like turn a light on or off (or dim). I decided real switches everywhere, and in places I have lamp modules not within easy reach, I have battery powered wall switches (Cooper RF9500) which are directly associated. I lose any automated aspects with a controller failure but I can walk up to any wall switch to turn a light on the old fashioned way. That was important for me. YMMV depending on your priorities.

I think the Hues and those kinds of lights are cool, but I’m prolly not going to use them as a primary means of lighting a room. Too much of the wireless stuff to fail to me.

19

[quote=“Katmai, post:18, topic:183286”]I think it just depends on how much you’re comfortable with, and your tolerance for inconvenience when something like a controller fails or the your internet/router is on the fritz. My stuff was going into an 80 year old house, so I wasn’t going to replace any preexisting wiring. I wanted the physical part of my house to remain the same, but I didn’t want to rely on any computer in case of failure to do basic things like turn a light on or off (or dim). I decided real switches everywhere, and in places I have lamp modules not within easy reach, I have battery powered wall switches (Cooper RF9500) which are directly associated. I lose any automated aspects with a controller failure but I can walk up to any wall switch to turn a light on the old fashioned way. That was important for me. YMMV depending on your priorities.

I think the Hues and those kinds of lights are cool, but I’m prolly not going to use them as a primary means of lighting a room. Too much of the wireless stuff to fail to me.[/quote]

The great thing about Hues, especially in lamps is that if you turn the actual lamp off and back on again, the bulb returns to an on state. They even return to a normal lamp color (so if it was on red, and you turn it off and back on, it turns back on to it’s default “white”).

Though, to be honest, that kinda sucks when the power goes out and all your hue bulbs turn on when the power returns…LOL. My point being that at least with Hues in lamps and in locations that have switches, you still maintain local switched control over the actual bulb. In this case you lose the ability to control the color, but that’s ok.

20

[quote=“Katmai, post:18, topic:183286”]I think it just depends on how much you’re comfortable with, and your tolerance for inconvenience when something like a controller fails or the your internet/router is on the fritz. My stuff was going into an 80 year old house, so I wasn’t going to replace any preexisting wiring. I wanted the physical part of my house to remain the same, but I didn’t want to rely on any computer in case of failure to do basic things like turn a light on or off (or dim). I decided real switches everywhere, and in places I have lamp modules not within easy reach, I have battery powered wall switches (Cooper RF9500) which are directly associated. I lose any automated aspects with a controller failure but I can walk up to any wall switch to turn a light on the old fashioned way. That was important for me. YMMV depending on your priorities.

I think the Hues and those kinds of lights are cool, but I’m prolly not going to use them as a primary means of lighting a room. Too much of the wireless stuff to fail to me.[/quote]

Yup.

That’s why I’ve decided on Cooper Aspire for all my wall switches. I’ve various A <–> B associations, 3-way circuits, etc, going on that I achieved without having Vera getting in the way. The only thing Vera is used for is time-of-day logic/schedules. The Vera could die tomorrow and all of my associations and room sensing logic would still work.