Device to device routing problem

Other Devices & Integrations Lighting & Load Control
1

Hi all,
I am newish to z-wave but so far everything has been going well. I have only fitted lighting control so far but i have just hit a snag.
I have a TKB dual paddle switch in the dining room and a single paddle TKB switch in the garage.
The dining room switch controls an outside wall light and the garage switch controls low voltage lighting in the garden.
Doing exactly what i have done elsewhere in the house i then set an association for group 2 (paddle 2) to control the garage switch.
Unfortunately nothing happens. When i look at the neighbours for both switches they do not include each other so it appears that the wall between is blocking the direct signal.
I thought that maybe i can use a virtual switch and a scene so that the dining switch operates a virtual switch which then triggers a scene to turn on the light but group 2 cannot associate with a virtual switch. I cannot just poll the switch because you poll the device you only see the wall light status. I guess group 2 cannot directly control a virtual switch because of the Lutron patent.

So

Can i set up direct routing from the dining room device to the garage device. If so how? I cannot see any variable named manual route. Will itwork if i set up the association with the devices next to each other and then separate them and run a heal. I have done various heals so far but no joy. I think that the heal only heals routes from the controller to devices and not between devices but that’s just a guess.

Any idea’s?

Edit.

Neighbours list from dining room switch (device id 15)
1,2,3,4,6,7,10,11,12,13,14,16,17,19,20,23,24,27,29

Neighbours list from garage switch (device id 33)
1,2,3,6,10,12,13,19,20,21,22,23,24,26,29,30,

Report after heal shows all devices with 5 stars

Edit 2

Have today removed the garage switch and powered it temporarily near the dining room switch and control is fine. As soon as the garage switch is even just inside the garage the link fails. Obviously the brick wall between is the problem. I still cannot understand why routing is not working though. The garage unit has many neighbours in common with the dining switch. Could it be that routing only works on the main switch and not the secondary groups?

2

I don’t think there is anything you can do here. Direct associations only work between two Zwave devices and cannot use the mesh to talk to each other. So if the garage fixture it too far away, I think you are out of luck. I don’t see any way to re-configre the TKB to support scenes to work arround the issue of the weak communicaiton between the TKB and the Garage switch.

3

However if your device is actually this one: http://www.vesternet.com/resources/application-notes/apnt-69#.VYhyIflVhBe then there are some hidden options that let you do both direct association and scenes and would solve your problem. I just don’t know exactly what device you have.

4

The two devices are TZ66-D and TZ66-S (double and single).
I think you are correct that I am stuffed and you have confirmed what i thought about association is only direct.

The sending unit is actually mounted in a metal wall back box so i think i may change this to a plastic back box or at least hang it out of the wall first to test. This may give me the range i want but as it is a block wall i may still not get the signal. Apart from this i can only think about using another device which i switch using the association and then use this to trigger the scene. It just seems a waste of a device.

Can you advise whether it us the patent which stops the group 2 controlling a virtual switch. It seems likely as otherwise it would be commonplace by now.

Thanks

5

You can’t do an association with a virtual switch a virtual switch is not a real device with a zwave radio in it that the TZ66 can talk to. I am guessing the TZ66 is sending out the signal to the node number of the virtual switch, but the Vera doesn’t know how to watch for the signal and then make the virtual switch aware of it to do something about it, it would need to be a much smarter Virtual Switch than it actually is! Basically the Vera would have to know how to hijack the signal somehow or trick the TZ66 into talking to it which would probably be opening a security hole of some kind.

You idea about associating it to another device and chaining them together also won’t work well. Direct association ON/OFF commands do not trigger the instant status update on the device, so will not update the Vera right away that it changed state. So you will have to wait for the Vera to poll the intermediate switch then trigger a scene to turn on the Garage switch. You likely talking a 30 second delay or more.

Similarly if you Associate Device A to Device B and then Associate Device B to Device C.

The only way that Device B will Trigger Device C is if Device B is initiating the action aka you push the button on B, so a Command from Device A or from the Vera itself will change the state of B but will not trigger it to update device C.

So if you can’t get the direct associate to work, you need to get a device that supports Scene’s like the WCS2 and trigger the switches through a Scene instead of direct association. Problem is that the WCS2 can’t support a local load.

6

I was hoping that a device with instant update would give me what i need but if association changes do not trigger the update then that is out.
I always had an option of a wall mounted scene controller but having paddle two available just made sense to use it.
I guess i will hope for the best changing metal back box to plastic but if that doesn’t work there is also an option to move the garage unit closer. Perhaps both.
It may have to wait until the weekend but i will let you know how it goes.

Cheers

7

I had chance today to try using the dining room switch hanging out from the wall to omit the influence of the metal back box but unfortunately no joy (it worked a couple of times intermittently but not good enough so that idea is abandoned.

Any suggestions on a scene controller with a least two buttons which could mount over a standard uk single gang wall box. This could then (using scenes) control the switch behind it for the outside light and also the garden lights. 240V powered would be ideal but not essential as long as it mounts over the existing wall box.

8

Get one of Aeon Labs Micro switches (or Fibaro in wall switches) to control the light that your TZ66 is controlling now and stuff it in the box (don’t attach a switch to it).
Put a one or two button Z-Wave.Me Wall Controller over it to cover the box (you might need to put a flat blank cover over the box first, but it looks like while the Wave.Me is battery powered it mounts over a UK box). Don’t worry the batteries last like years.

Create a scene that turns on the Micro Switch and the Garage switch, and trigger it from a Wave.Me button push. Create a scene that turns off the Micro and Garage Switch and triggers it from a different Wave.Me button push. You get a bunch of other button push combinations on the Wave.Me that can do custom scene you might want to setup. You might want to setup one of the button push combinations as a direct association with the Micro Switch, that way if your Vera dies or isn’t working you can still turn off the Micro Switch without taking off Wave.Me to get at the Micro Switch.

9

Thanks for the input. I thought the Z-Wave.Me Wall Controller might be my best choice ad it has a double paddle option which matches the other switches i have. It is interesting that i can use it as a scene controller and via association.
I do not need to buy another wall box as the TKB switch modules can be separated from the fascia so at least i save some money there.

At least this was a good learning curve on how everything works.

10

I’ve been drawn into this discussion by this thread. As demonstrated in that thread, direct associations do in fact utilize the routed mesh network to control associated devices. There may be variations in behavior or improper specification implementations by different manufacturers, so your mileage may vary.

Sorry, I have no experience with TKB equipment. But, my initial suspicion is that this is a routing issue.

Can you post the contents of the autoroute fields for each of these devices as well as the capabilities string for the TKB66-D? (This should be taken after the devices are in their final destinations and a network (nightly)heal has been performed at least once.) Also, please include the allroutesfailed fields. Additionally, are you using Vera’s default Mios/Vera routing or Z-wave routing?

11

Wow that is good news, Slartibartfast, this means you can just put another device between your switch and the garage to boost the mesh. Leave them associated (since you managed to get them associated and sort of working. Put a non-battery powered device between them, you can get a smart outlet plug, repeater, another light switch, just make sure it is not battery powered and and be located between them, something that is located on the inside near the garage might be good.

Then heal you network and technically that should fix your problem. Allowing the switch to talk to the garage switch with a boost from an intermediate device.

Sorry I lead you astray there, never heard of that working before. I would make sure you pick an intermediate device that is a newer device that going to behave well as a mesh booster.

12

Z-waver,

Just got in after business trip out so will provide the data asap.

I can advise that i have tried both vera and z-wave routing with full heals after each.

I don’t remember any allroutes failed data but will check when i send the other info.

This is my last bit of lighting to sort and you could be about to save me money ready for implementing heating next.

Thanks

13

Z-waver

Information as requested

Selected Z-Wave Routing
Full Heal with reconfigure all devices

Sending switch:
ID ? 15
Device #17
Configuredassoc - 2,44 (using group 2 for control of receiving switch)
Capabilities - 211,156,0,4,16,1,L,R,B,RS,|37,39,112,114,115,133,134,
Autoroute - 0-5,3-15,4-15,2-16
Allroutesfailed - 0

Receiving Switch:
ID ? 33
Device #44
Configuredassoc - None
Capabilities - 211,156,0,4,16,1,L,R,B,RS,|37,39,112,114,115,133,134,
Autoroute ? 0-3,16-14,3-15,2-16
Allroutesfailed - 0

Neighbours fields all empty (I assume because done as z-wave routing and not vera routing)

14

This should work. There are multiple good routes shared by both these devices. I’d suggest contacting TKB and see if they can offer any advice. They may have an implementation issue.

Just for giggles, you might try associating on group 1 and see if that works. It would be interesting if it does.

15

I will try TKB as you suggest. I will also try a few other areas where direct links are not possible to see if it is common across all the switches of this type. I think all my other associations so far all have direct links so it has not cropped up before.

If i find a solution i will post it in case others have the same problem.

Thanks for trying.

Edit - i tried group 1 as well but no change.

16

Slartibarfast, Out of curiosity what brand and device type are 2 and 3 as they are shared between the two.

17

Shallowearth

Id’s 2&3 are both TKB TZ68E wall on/off sockets.

They are both in the room over the garage but node 2 is closest to both the problem switches.

I did send a mail to TKB this morning UK time but no answer yet.